snipped: jan heine wrote: "First of all, Herse, Singer et al. were not framebuilders. The French distinguish between a framebuilder (constructeur des cadres) and a "constructeur," which means a builder of bikes." so... the "constructeur" phenomenom. it only exists in france? or, french language notwithstanding, are constructeurs found in other countrys?
and, i'm not clear on this: "...of course, all of this came about because of randonneuring. You simply cannot build a good randonneur bike by just making a frame and fork and then have the customer worry about the racks and fenders."
is it only just the racks and fenders? if so, can off-the-shelf parts be added to a frame, along with the 'specific' racks and fenders and be considered a randonneur bicycle? yes, no? why, why not? i understand, and really dig, the romantic notion of all this. i just don't get the need, in this era particularly, to make your own parts if the parts makers are doing a fine job of it. modifying them-perhaps. also-were there 'many' constructeurs, or just a handful? i'd be pleasantly surprised to hear that frame guys all over france were also making cranks, stems, and what'have'you. one other question: did the constructeurs agononize over frame details or was the frame just the canvas that it all hung on? i feel like these are simple-minded questions, but i AM curious about what place in the industry was taken up by these makers from that era. oh, one last thing: was there a golden age for all this, or does it still exist on a large scale over there? thanks. e-RICHIE chester, ct
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:39:32 -0700 Jan Heine <heine@mindspring.com>
writes:
> First of all, Herse, Singer et al. were not framebuilders. The French
>
> distinguish between a framebuilder (constructeur des cadres) and a
> "constructeur," which means a builder of bikes. You can't order a
> Singer frame and fork - you order a bike. Nothing wrong with a
> framebuilder, like Bianco, but they won't made you a randonneur or
> camping bike. If you are a racer, you go to a framebuilder, if you
> are a cyclotouriste, you go to a "constructeur."
>
> The philosophy between Herse and Singer differs. Herse got his start
>
> with components, so those always were his hallmark (see the bike in
>
> Rivendell Reader No. 26 for a good selection of them). Singer made
> bikes, and modified components only where he saw it necessary.
> Stronglight cranks were perfectly fine, so Singer never made his own
>
> cranks, but he did offer his own BB with cartridge bearings (which
> outlasts anything available then). He did make brakes, stems (any
> custom French builder had to have his own stems), front derailleurs
>
> (most then-current designs didn't work on large tooth differences
> like the common 46/32), seatposts (a bit of frippery here - they had
>
> internal clamping). All French "constructeurs" made racks, of
> course.
>
> Singer is not dissimilar to other constructeurs in the parts he
> offered - they all made and modified stuff, some more, some less.
> Most of the complex stuff (machine work for BB spindles, casting,
> forging) was subcontracted. Levallois-Perret was the metal-working
> center of Paris, with the Citroën factory and many small custom car
>
> shops (as Californians would call them).
>
> I have a wonderful women's bike by Ondet (Lyon). Under the
> chainguard, it has a custom-made front derailleur (similar to
> Herse's
> model), for the half-step gearing. You couldn't do that elegantly
> with mass-produced parts, so M. Ondet made his own... (The bike will
>
> be in Rivendell Reader No. 27 or 28.)
>
> Of course, all of this came about because of randonneuring. You
> simply cannot build a good randonneur bike by just making a frame
> and
> fork and then have the customer worry about the racks and fenders.
> That is why there are so few good randonneur bikes found on this
> continent, with the exception of Mariposa, who work in the French
> way. (Or you can become the constructeur and specify every smallest
>
> measurement and detail to the framebuilder, and then hope you (or
> they) didn't overlook something when the time comes to put it all
> together. It's a nightmare - I have done it. After the second try,
> the bike is 95% right!)
>
> For the question of who made the stuff - I hope to have an interview
>
> in my newsletter at some point that will elaborate on that. The
> Japanese Herse book shows how the Herse stems were made from
> extruded
> bar stock at the Herse shop. A lot of drilling and filing! I am told
>
> odd-length cranks were made that way by Herse as well, but the
> standard stuff was forged and machined somewhere else. TA made some
>
> of the later chainrings, but the early ones with the triangular
> tooth
> profile appear to have been made on more primitive equipment,
> probably in the Herse shop. There is a photo in the Japanese book
> with what appear to be blank chainrings (no holes cut yet) on the
> wall.
>
> Jan Heine, Seattle