Sometimes fixed cups are really in there and no manner of hand tool will work. the best solution is to use your vice. This works best if you have everything else stripped from the frame but can be done with just the wheels and cranks removed. If you have soft jaws for your vise that would be preferred but if you're careful you can clamp the fixed cup securely without marring the alloy cup. Clamp the cup and grab the seattube and headtube and rotate. If you want to be real careful drip some Liquid Wrench into the BB threads and give it 10-15 minutes to work through and then rotate. Of course you could just take the frame to your local shop and give em $5 to loosen the sucker. good luck, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives Sometimes is Lance's ex-mechanic's mechanic in Santa Barbara, Calif.