>
>Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:11:10 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
>To: HM & SS Sachs <sachs@erols.com>,
> Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>,
> gillies@cs.ubc.ca, haxixe@gmail.com
>Subject: Re: Windsor v. Cinelli, was Re: [CR]Centurion Cinelli
>
>You are correct. That's the surest way of telling a Cinelli from a redecaled
>Windsor. The Windsor uses a larger post, although I can't remember if it's 27.2
>or 26.8. Again, I'm not sure Windsor ever had the full-sloping Cinelli fork
>crown, but there were plenty of clones of those around, or one could even add a
>genuine Cinelli fork to a redecaled Windsor.
>
>Regards,
>
>Sure looks like a Windsor Pro. In 1974 Ann Arbor Cyclery had a
>Windsor Pro and a Cinelli SC hanging adjacent in their shop.
>Virtually every construction detail and piece on the bike was
>identical to the Cinelli. The only differences appeared to be the
>quality of construction, chrome and paint. The Cinelli cost double,
>or nearly so and was probably worth it.
>
>
>
>
>
I recently spent a lot of time researching (via email and internet
searches) the Windsor question and received quite a bit of raw data,
mostly recollection and hearsay from members of this list and three
others. Based on this, and NO expertise of my own, it seems that the
Windsor Pro and the identical (but for the decals) Carabela Pro were
products of Acer-Mex in Mexico and that a Cinelli employee/defector
(perhaps a nephew or cousin, this is debatable) was involved in setting
up production of their "Cinelli Clone" model and training the frame
techs, but afterward left the employ of Acer-Mex. If true or not, it's
also unclear whether this once had the blessing or support of Cinelli
Italia, or if this was done as an independent "end-run" and as
competition thru design piracy.
Whether true or not, there are several critical differences that
distinguish the WP from any Cinelli: the Pros typically have a 27.2 or
occasionally a 26.8 seatpost (Cinelli would be smaller than 26.8); WP
have a distinctive "semi-sloping" fork crown, not the fully-sloping
crown typical of the Cinelli, nor the full-flat crown of the Cinelli "B"
model; WP was decalled, not drilled for a headbadge; the chainstays are
crimped in a distinctive pattern and on both inner and outer surfaces of
the driveside stay and the stay reinforcement bridge has a distinctive
large diameter, WP serial numbers are stamped on the left side of the
seat lug in a vertical line (not on a Cinelli).
Here's some anecdotal info that I can't vouch for: WP may have had BSC
(and therefore 68mm width) BB shells (though my sample has Italian
threads); and the real teaser, one poster said he recalled that somebody
brought in bikes from Acer-Mex, but rebadged them as Centurions. This
would have been, if true, probably done by an individual dealer or
dealer-group rather than by Western Sales (who had ownership of the
Centurion, Nishiki, and Diamondback brands), but who knows? That example
on eBay is the first concrete photo I've seen of the possibility, and is
obviously different from the well-documented run of Centurion-Cinellis
previously mentioned.
Somebody REALLY determined to dress up a Windsor Pro to pass off as a
Cinelli COULD sub in a real Cinelli fork, drill and install a Cinelli
headbadge, grind off the serial number and splice in a sleeve to reduce
the seatpost diameter...but I doubt that anybody seeing the 2
side-by-side would mistake the quality of workmanship that separates a
Cinelli from a Mexinelli...IMHO, of course.
Alan Goldsworthy
San Francisco, CA