Re: RE: [CR]RE: FrameSaver vs. Hydrogen Embrittlement

(Example: Framebuilders:Brian Baylis)

Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:05:14 -0500
From: <joebz@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: RE: [CR]RE: FrameSaver vs. Hydrogen Embrittlement
In-reply-to: <MONKEYFOODSe9g4pXX500003198@monkeyfood.nt.phred.org>
To: minneman@alum.mit.edu
References: <e117d55490e1.43b29bae@optonline.net>
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Please use Scott's numbers. What I gave was a) my memory, b) of a procedure from over ten years ago and c) subject to copious discussion back then.

Joe Bender-Zanoni
Great Notch, NJ


----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Minneman
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 06:36:00 -0000
Subject: RE: [CR]RE: FrameSaver vs. Hydrogen Embrittlement


> I thought those baking temperatures were supposed to be

\r?\n> considerably higher

\r?\n> then 300 degrees F. The ASTM guidelines say something like 400

\r?\n> degrees F

\r?\n> for up to 24 hours, depending on the tensile strength and rockwell

\r?\n> hardnessof the steel.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> It's not an issue with weaker steels like those used in bumpers and

\r?\n> a lot of

\r?\n> the other things they may be used to chroming, so it might not

\r?\n> occur to the

\r?\n> average chroming shop to do it. If they aren't familiar with the

\r?\n> process,or don't have the facilities, head elsewhere.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Scott Minneman

\r?\n> San Francisco, CA

\r?\n>

\r?\n> -----Original Message-----

\r?\n> From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org

\r?\n> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of

\r?\n> joebz@optonline.net

\r?\n> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 11:06 AM

\r?\n> To: usgeigers

\r?\n> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

\r?\n> Subject: Re: [CR]RE: FrameSaver vs. Hydrogen Embrittlement

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> A few things need to get sorted out. The acid in the chroming

\r?\n> process can

\r?\n> do two seperate bad things- the first is not to get rinsed our or

\r?\n> neutralized in which case it corrodes the tube. The second is hydrogen

\r?\n> embrittlement.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> The acid in the tubes is a matter of thorough rinsing, which can be

\r?\n> compicated by access. Larger vent holes are probably a good idea. I

\r?\n> supposethat using a mild neutralizing solution (baking soda)

\r?\n> wouldn't hurt either.

\r?\n> So make sure the tubes are rinsed and dry before using Framesaver.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Hydrogen embrittlement results fromm diffusion of hydrogen atoms

\r?\n> into the

\r?\n> metal while in the plating solution. This leads to cracking by

\r?\n> mechanismsthat are still probably meing argued about today. While

\r?\n> there are claims

\r?\n> that some platers and plating processes do not create hydrogen

\r?\n> embrittlement, it is an ongoing problem, particularly for high

\r?\n> strengthaerospace fasteners. There is no doubt that the process

\r?\n> matters, because

\r?\n> the embrittlement problem is very erratic. The tried and true

\r?\n> solution is

\r?\n> subjecting the plated article to a baking cycle so the hydrogen

\r?\n> diffusesback out. There are arguments about how long etc. but a 12-

\r?\n> 24 hour cycle at

\r?\n> 300 degrees F is probably enough. Also the hydrogen diffuses out no

\r?\n> matterwhat, based on the time and temperature, so a year at room

\r?\n> temperature is OK

\r?\n> also. Framesaver is not going to affect the diffusion process.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> I think the biggest example of possible hydrogen embrittlement of

\r?\n> chromedframes was Schwinn Paramounts. Many of the chromed frames

\r?\n> seemed to crack. I

\r?\n> have seen cracked Fuji Newests, but not Fuji Finests (both of which

\r?\n> arechromed under the paint).

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Joe Bender-Zanoni

\r?\n> Great Notch, NJ

\r?\n>

\r?\n> ----- Original Message -----

\r?\n> From: usgeigers <geiggle@sbcglobal.net>

\r?\n> Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 12:17 pm

\r?\n> Subject: [CR]RE: FrameSaver vs. Hydrogen Embrittlement

\r?\n>

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > -----Original Message-----

\r?\n> > From: usgeigers <geiggle@sbcglobal.net>

\r?\n> > To: oroboyz@aol.com

\r?\n> > Sent: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:21:34 -0800

\r?\n> > Subject: FrameSaver vs Hydrogen Embrittlement

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Seasons Greetings,

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Let me introduce myself. I've had my Cinelli going on 35 yrs.

\r?\n> Finally

\r?\n> > decided to give it what it so richly deserves, the full spa

\r?\n> > treatment:

\r?\n> > First I had the frame and forks trued (just to be sure) at Shaw's

\r?\n> bike

\r?\n> > shop in Santa Clara, good guys there; they said it was out by 2mm

\r?\n> from

\r?\n> > bb to top of seat tube which is NOT uncommon (must of been that

\r?\n> spill

\r?\n> > I took back in 73'). Then off to Superior Chrome in San Jose, I

\r?\n> asked

\r?\n> > for front fork, back fork and the usual three lug treatment but

\r?\n> they

\r?\n> > dipped the entire frame instead. Hydrogen Embrittlement? Yes, I'm

\r?\n> > concerned. Thanks for your earlier replies, by the way, guys.

\r?\n> It's

\r?\n> > headed for powder coat, yes, powder coat, I feel it's a stronger

\r?\n> > product, however if there are concerns I'munaware of please, let

\r?\n> me

\r?\n> > know. After that, home for period correct decals then back for

\r?\n> clear

\r?\n> > coat then home for reassembly. I can't wait!!

\r?\n> > FrameSaver seems an obvious preventative measure. I'm wondering

\r?\n> tho if

\r?\n> > it will aid in decreasing any embrittlement potential. I spoke

\r?\n> with my

\r?\n> > friend who is the plater at Space Systems Loral in Palo Alto (an

\r?\n> aero

\r?\n> > space

\r?\n> > company) he said, the bigger concern with H/E is if any platting

\r?\n> > fluids seep into the tubes and stays there. Well, both forks have

\r?\n> > those 1mm breather holes in them so I hope the FS will displace

\r?\n> any

\r?\n> > residual fluidsthat may have been left behind. Mark at Superior

\r?\n> Chrome

\r?\n> > has done many bike frames and has never heard of any problems

\r?\n> with

\r?\n> > embrittlement on bike frames nor had any returns or complaints,

\r?\n> that's

\r?\n> > encouraging news. Anyway, all said it will be on my mind when I'm

\r?\n> > doing 60 mph down a steep one, otherwise I'm cool. Dale, thanks

\r?\n> for

\r?\n> > the heads-up, I'm new at CR.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Kurt Geiger

\r?\n> > Cupertino, CA