Jerry Moos had commented about what stem length he used for a specific toptube length. For those of you who missed Dave Moulton's presentation at Cirque, Dave showed variations on geometry of bicycles from the time of the high wheelers to today. One thing I noticed was that he placed the leading edge of the handlebar curve directly above the front wheel axle, regardless of the head angle shown. I've mentioned on the list before that I place the center of the brake levers directly above the front wheel axle, but to see his drawings, it made more sense to do it his way since brake lever "center" can be somewhat less accurate than Dave's method. While I use toptube length as an initial measurement, I use toptube length minus setback (which is part of the toptube length) to get the actual forward measurement that helps me size a bike. I think Dave's method removes the variations caused by head angles and setback . Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
"Ah, the joys of Paris: a unique chance to swill warm wine and be mesmerized by the dank ambrosia of unkempt armpits..."