Re: [CR]Quarreling frame builders

Greg,

Mamny have missed THIS point. Experience is VERY important in

framebuilding, just like any other craft or skill. The question is

how long does it take to gain such experience? Some say a LONG time

and I say that within 5 years of steady building or even intense

hobby building most will reach a level of BASIC framebuilding skills

pretty much equal to most "masters". If one goes beyond the basics of

framebuilding (meaning using modern frame bits and just putting the

frames together) then it may or may not ever come. That is what comes

from within the framebuilder.

In order to learn a lot in a relatively short time one needs to hang

around a situation where the people know framebuilding. To learn by

oneself by making mistakes and so on is very slow and painstaking.

The best thing would be to work in production for a while OR become

an official apprentice of an experienced builder. The latter

opportunities are extremely rare, as many know. Most of us prefer to

work alone it seems. I work alone and I prefer it. But last year a

young man (about 30 years old) came to me wanting to learn

framebuilding. As always, I was skeptical, but decided to give this

person a chance to prove himself. I gave him 30 days to show me what

he was made of. Within 2 weeks I was concinced this gut was going to

stick around for a few years and he was not only talented; but more

inportantly he is very self-motivated and in alignment with my

personal pholosphies.

Our deal is that he helps me in the paint department sa he learns to

paint and I will help him learn to build frames for himself. He

doesn't do any work on my frames; all of his work goes into making

stuff for himself until he become his own independant framebuilder.

He's making fantastic progress and is into his second frame; and it's

very complex. It's not a bunch of fancy cutting and foo-foo dressing.

He's decided to build a French style ladies bike, for which he is

making his own lugs from scratch. This guy is going places many

framebuilders will never go.

Any framebuilder knows what type of distraction someone hanging

around the shop will be and how much time it will suck out of your

day. Could even mess up tooling or who knows what. Carlos purchased

his own Campy tool case and is collecting his own tools and making

his own fixtures for various operations. But for the cases like this

it comes out in the wash for me because this person learns VERY fast

and has helped me get back to working on frames. I learn a lot by

teaching also, as most people know.

Furthermore, for the benifit of DAZZA, this person will learn how to

design and build bikes and handle customers and other framebuilding

related sitiations that none of the people who go through classes

will ever be exposed to. He will emerge a complete unit will all the

skills of any top framebuilder and will have a special bag of tricks

that can only be had from veteran framebuilders.

I also took on an "intern" from a college in Vermont earlier this

year. He called and wrote to every top builder in the country asking

if he could intern for school credit for a 5 week period. Everyone

blew the kid off. Name a name. He called me on the phone one day to

inquire. I knew it would be happening during the critical weeks just

before the framebuilders show in March and that it would likely be a

bad time to have another body hanging around the shop. But he

mentioned he was an Eagle Scout. I knew the kid could learn something

and he would get a taste of reality framebuilding if he came around.

I told him he needed some experience before he showed up so that he

would understand better what was going on. He would need to provide

transportation for himself and find a place to stay.

Amazingly, the kid took a one week instruction from a framebuilder in

his area, arranged to stay with an Aunt he'd never even met who lived

in La Jolla, and made his way to my shop on his bike and the trolley

every day for 5 weeks without fail. No wonder he made Eagle Scout.

Yes it was a distraction and during a bad time; but he got to see

some intense work on the AeroTour and he got to see what life is like

in the trenches as I did my daily routine. I enjoyed the experience

tremendously and feel the kid helped me in some ways and I was able

to give the kid a once in a lifetime experience.

Experience is neccessary. What kind of experiences one has can make a

HUGE difference. Expreience isn't only just doing work repetatively.

A good teacher can impart experience that can be absorbed by the more

advanced and motivated students.

A lot of what I said in my initial post has been misinterperted by

some readers. I will clarify everything in good time. Right now I

need to head to the shop.

Brian Baylis

La Mesa, CA