John, Just a few quick observations on your posting "Eye candy once again, I do think some of the older lugged frames are over done and only for a markerting standpoint,as is I think. the cury Hetchins and Baines gate designs are". Hilary Stone who writes for Cycling + has done some excellent articles on this topic and I a sure he is a great beliver and devotee to the Cantiflex Bates, didn't here say that they ride like modern machines and rates them highly. The great Cyril Cartwright did all his early epic rides on a Bates Cantiflex with Diadrant forks. He won the "National 25" in June 1945 on a Bates, the course had a very bumpy surface but he won in 59m 44s. As for the Hetchins Vibrant (Curly) triangle it was always said that this was designed by Jack for racing with wooden rims over stone sets and it was supposed to have been of much benefit in the 30's when cobbles were about. What I can say about the Vibrant is that here in the UK many Rough Stuff users used and rode the Curly to destruction in the 60's and 70's especially up here in Wales on our very rough tracks, they swore by them. Strange that these now sort after classics were very cheap back then and were ridden to destruction by the Rough Stuff lads but they thought it worked. Hetchins halcyon years of racing successes were mostly prewar when cobbled and rough roads were far more commonplace. The Flying Gate is the perfect USWB machine proven over many years. Bob Cary one of the very few British riders who you will here Peter Post sing the praises off rode one as a Pro with considerable success. Bob's Gate was made by Trevor Jarvis and a few of the Belgium Pro's rode them in the 70's as well. I have a Gate and its a wonderful machine and the design works well and its stiff. Croeso Cymru Joe King Nr. Maenaddwyn Ynys Mon Wales