The real essence of these posts regarding ICS, the 50th Anniversary Group, etc. is a fundamental disagreement about collectibility. Collectibility is an idea, and when ideas can't be agreed on, the terminology surrounding these ideas becomes the point of contention.
Tom's idea is that to be collectible a bike or part must have a significant racing history.
Ray's idea is that bikes and parts that have high aesthetic quality are collectable.
I feel that there is merit in both their ideas of collectibility and have tried to incorporate in my own little collection some bikes that have a significant racing history and others that please my sensibilities.
George
George Hollenberg MD
Westport, CT, USA
> Tom wrote:
>
> "To me any item that appeals to collectors when new, like a
> 50th anni group, is basically something that was manufatured to
> be collected. It is thus something doomed to have the enduring
> appeal of an item from the Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away
> by "collectors" and no real history of use, in this case of use
> in racing."
>
> I respect your knowledge and value your opinion Tom, but when
> you "dis" the 50th Anniversary gruppo, you go too far :).
>
> The 50th gruppo is as functional as a standard Super Record
> reduced gruppo. Perhaps you don't like the pantographing and
> the gold inserts, from an aesthetic point of view, but they do
> not reduce the functionality of the parts nor do they affect
> performance. Some of the parts may weigh a few grams more, but
> the difference is negligible. If I am not mistaken, Beppe
> Saronni won the 1982 World Championship on a 50th equipped
> Colnago Mexico.
>
> The 50th Anniv is one of those groups that is meant to be both
> rideable and collectible. I would guess that as many 50th
> groups are mounted and ridden as are still in the box. I've
> seen many that have been ridden into the ground, in fact.
>
> To me, the difference between a standard Super Record gruppo
> and a 50th gruppo is like the difference between a frame with
> lots of chrome and a fancy paint job, and the same frame without
> the chrome and the fancy paint job. They are functionally the
> same, the only difference is which appeals to your taste.
>
> But to condemn the 50th gruppo to the Franklin Mint-dustbin of
> collectibles is just wrong. You cut me deep on that one Tom.
>
> Ray Dobbins
> Miami FL USA
>
>
> Tom Dalton wrote:
> George Hollenberg wrote:
> All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably
> elicit the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture
> and metal finishing trades-not to mention collectors.
>
>
> George,
> Not from this collector. I collect racing bikes. To me an ICS-
> equipped bike is as racy as a Ferrari with gold brightwork and
> 20" spinners.
>
> George Hollenberg wrote:
> they sacrificed function to form and finish.
>
> George,
> Exactly. A total deal breaker when you're looking at bikes as
> racing machines.
>
> George Hollenberg wrote:
>
> In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make
> their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to
> every length to make their product excellent and exclusive-a
> collector's dream.
>
> George,
> I disagree. Basic, top-end Campy, Mavic, Shimano, etc. racing
> equipment did not sacrifice"everything to make their bikes cheap
> and therefore readily salable," by any stretch of the
> imagination. They provided nice functional finish while ICS was
> in the lilly guilding biz. To me any item that appeals to
> collectors when new, like a 50th anni group, is basically
> something that was manufatured to be collected. It is thus
> something doomed to have the enduring appeal of an item from the
> Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away by "collectors" and no real
> history of use, in this case of use in racing.
>
> ICS made interesting stuff, don't get me wrong, but I think it
> is mostly an oddity, with little historical importance. I raced
> during the ICS era, and never saw it used in a race... ever.
>
> Respectfully,
> Tom Dalton
> Bethlehem PA USA
>
> Another member has raised several interesting questions about ICS.
> Many of the answers to those questions can be found on CR's site and
> little would be served by reiterating this information.
> Other questions, such as precisely who the men at ICS were, I don't
> know, but I'll make inquiry in Switzerland to find out. In fact,
> ICS was
> imported into the USA and the former importer is still around. Perhaps
> he, as well as other members, can provide answers.
> As for the "mission" of ICS is seems obvious to me that they
> endeavoredto produce very highly tuned and exquisitely finished
> parts and
> frames for the "carriage trade" sector of the bicycle business.
> With this
> market in mind, and with certain important exceptions, they sacrificed
> function to form and finish. However, if one values fine finish
> in bike
> parts and frames, ICS is without par.
> All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit
> the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal
> finishing trades-not to mention collectors. They are sought and
> collected for
> their beauty, quality and rarity. Their high cost at the time of
> production severely limited their numbers and sales. Their
> frames, whether
> the "Magni" or the "Design" variants were beautifully
> constructed and
> finished almost always in the "chromovelato" style.
> As is the case in many vintage bike marques, the level of
> quality of
> the late ICS parts and frames is diminished. Furthermore, it was
> alwayspossible to order an ICS frame alone, or with only a few
> ICS parts,
> using stock parts to complete the bike. Super Record ICS parts
> were mixed
> with ICS C Parts, Super Record, and even Shimano parts, etc. In the
> same vein, later owners of ICS bikes frequently stripped some
> ICS parts
> and retrofitted others. All these factors, common in all vintage bikes
> seen in their later years, must be taken into consideration when
> viewingan ICS bike currently for sale.
> In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make
> their bikes
> cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make
> their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream.
> George
> George Hollenberg MD
> Westport, CT, USA
>
>
> George Hollenberg MD
> CT, USA
>
>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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>
George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA