Jan wrote in part " Of course, it would be nice if bikes were sold by established auction houses, who actually research the claims of the sellers, rather than just post photos. But the prices of bicycles (fortunately) are not high enough to warrant that effort."
I don't think that that's entirely true. In the broader "market" which is mostly older collectors and people who enjoy riding vintage lightweights, it's mostly true, but I doesn't have to be that way. The example that comes to mind is a Christies motorcycle auction a few years ago that included some bicycle lots. A pair of US team bikes from the Pan -AM games in 83 one, a team pursuit bike pretty much original, the other, Likely a pursuit bike with a poor restoration(possibly a prototype, but unlikely) Sold for $7,000 Another lot was a Cinelli Lazer tandem that I think went for $10K. Christies does some good work at verifying the stuff they sell. They pretty much have to in order to attract bidders that can and will spend that much. One of the things They don't tell you about Antiques roadshow is that the appraisers are from some of the handful of places that can actually get those high prices. I think if enough bikes were sold in the right venues, some interesting prices could result.
Copake also seems to do a fine job with their annual bike auction. But the stuff is mostly much older, and the link to a particular builder and year seems to be a bit less important.
Steve Birmingham Lowell, Massachusetts USA
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 08:04:17 -0700 From: Jan Heine <heine94@earthlink.net> To: "Robert D. Dayton,Jr." <rdayton@carolina.rr.com>, "'Earle Young'" <earle.young@tds.net>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <ealbert01@gmail.com>, <dmart84815@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [CR]Is the real or imposter? Message-ID: <a0623094ec4d72725e096@[192.168.1.33]> In-Reply-To: <20080824143943.KDJX13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@DDR46Q31> References: <20080824143943.KDJX13299.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@DDR46Q31> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1
At 10:39 AM -0400 8/24/08, Robert D. Dayton,Jr. wrote:
>My intention has never been to doubt anyone's integrity.
>It was to help learn about a builder's history thru the collective
>wisdom of the board. Find out what objective basis could be used to
>establish the identity of a bike.
>To that end so far there has been the reputation and knowledge of the
>seller. The components are period correct. And there is a similar frame
>with similar characteristics from five years prior.
>
>In the selling of aged collectables, provenance is everything.
>That's how the auction houses survived. By thoroughly researching and
>validating the items presented for auction, they provide a service both
>seller and buyer.
The bike world has seen its fair share of bogus and fakery. There were sellers with stellar reputations who suddenly vanished with loads of money (remember Carsten in Germany?). People who sell fakes (Harry Butler in Britain had a reputation for his Thanets). Some even hawked bikes that did not exist at all (Brian Todd, who even dreamt up a whole newsgroup of fictional characters to validate his boatloads of Rene Herse and Alex Singer bikes). Provenance has been added to bikes (a Masi track bike was sold with a forged card in the BB, signed and dated by Masi. The card made the bike a lot older than it was. The seller later admitted the forgery). Finally, you have people who buy a bike, discover a problem, and sell the bike without disclosing the problem.
Potential buyers turn to forums like this one to find out whether the bike they are buying is genuine or not. I think it would be a disservice to seller and buyer if these discussions were stifled. An honest seller (especially one with what could be called a mixed reputation) can only benefit from having their goods examined closely. The beauty of e-bay (compared to a private sale) is that the information is out there for all to examine. Of course, it would be nice if bikes were sold by established auction houses, who actually research the claims of the sellers, rather than just post photos. But the prices of bicycles (fortunately) are not high enough to warrant that effort.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
140 Lakeside Ave #C
Seattle WA 98122
http://www.bikequarterly.com