On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Jerome & Elizabeth Moos
<jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I think the biggest Campy problem was a Ti axle Super Record hub (I bel
> ieve that would have been the designation) that broke axles frequently.
> I'm not sure if this was actually ever released for public sale, or i
> f failures of prototypes, perhaps used by Campy-sponsored teams, caused t
> he hubs to be dropped. If they did make it to market, they were quickl
> y pulled.
>
> There were also problems breaking Ti BB axles. I believe there was a fam
> ous photo of one of the major stars of the day sitting on the road after hi
> s Ti BB axle snapped. I think the Ti BB also used different size bearings a
> nd the original version has male threads on the axle ends, so it used n
> uts to secure it, like a mid-priced Japanese BB. Don't know that that de
> sign caused a specific problem, but some guys didn't like a nutted BB at a
> premium price.
>
> The Super Record pedals also broke axles, though I think less frequently th
> an the BB's and certainly not as bad as the short-lived hubs. The bearin
> gs and bearing cups are also different from NR, so one can't change between
> Ti and steel axles without changing the bearing cups which is a chore.
> And Campy didn't use Ti where it would have made sense on the pedal plates,
> where it would have been lighter than steel, but not as easily scratched u
> p as aluminum. Zeus 2000 had both TI axles and Ti cage plates.
>
> About the only SR Ti bits that worked without problems were pivot bolts on
> the rear derailleur. And they wound up being the only Ti on what was sol
> d as a Super Record Reduced gruppo, which had the SR RD with Ti bolts, SR c
> hanirings with no inner web but a steel BB axle and arms the same as NR, dr
> illed SR brake levers, an SR seatpost, second generation of which was singl
> e bolt, and SuperLeggeri pedals, with the black anodized aluminum cage plat
> es but a steel axle and the same size bearings as NR. And Record (not su
> re they were ever called Nuovo Record) hubs with steel axles.
>
> Zeus 2000, on the other hand, had Ti pedal cages as well as pedal axles, an
> d Ti BB axle. I also believe that the 2000 BB cups were Ti, whereas Supe
> r Record, IIRC were aluminum with steel races. And of course the RD pivo
> t bolts were Ti like Campy SR. I'm not sure if the 2000 hub axles were T
> i, and not inclined to disassemble mine to check.
>
> I had a new Alan Super Record built in 1981 with a full Zeus 2000 gruppo, a
> nd I have found it far superior to any Campy gruppo I've ever ridden. We
> ll actually, not quite a full 2000 gruppo, because the 2000 brakes weren't
> quite short enough for the close clearence Alan frame. So it does have S
> uper Record brakes, which were one part of the SR gruppo that did not have
> any problems. I've never broken a Ti part on a Zeus 2000 component, no
> r have I heard of Zeus 2000 being prone to failures as most of the SR Ti
> parts were. Now some will argue that one hears of more Campy SR Ti fai
> lures just because they sold more than Zeus 2000. But Zeus 2000, while l
> ower volume than Campy SR, wasn't super rare. I think Zeus just somehow
> figured out how to make Ti pedal and BB axles with acceptable durability
> , whereas Campy did not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, Texas, USA
>
> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Isaac Schell <ias23philly@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Isaac Schell <ias23philly@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [CR]zeus catalog
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:35 AM
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of a zeus 2000 catalog? It's my
> understanding that zeus was able make good use of titanium, while campy's
> attempt was not so great. Can anyone tell me exactly what failed in campag
> nolo
> products but that worked in zeus? Thanks,
>
> Isaac (newby to componentry) Schell
> Philadelphia PA
> USA
>
>
Good post by Jerry and pretty comprehensive, a couple addenda:
The SR Ti BB spindles with the male threads were the 2nd gen version, the first were hollow and conventional in design. The solid male threaded versions were a fix for problems with the first type. I have an early type Campagnolo hollow spindle and you can, peering through the spindle, see that the drill or boring bar used to hollow the spindle was wandering inside the spindle during the machining process. It looks to me like they used the same machining methodology as for the steel spindles and failed to account for Ti's lower modulus of elasticity. A friend worked for Boeing as a machinist and was on the team that machined the swing-wing pivot bearings from Ti and they had similar problems until they sorted out the machining process. It's worth noting that Campagnolo speced CP (commercially pure) Ti for their SR pieces, whereas it seems likely that Zeus had the good sense to spec much stronger modern biphase Ti-Al alloys for strength critical parts.
Also Zeus did some logical Ti for steel replacements in the QRs- Ti for the caps locating the lever/cams and end nuts with D-rings- that Campagnolo missed, as well as the aforementioned pedal cage plates which were and still are a very appropriate application of Ti where Campagnolo and all other makers of quill-type pedals seem to have missed, using either soft Al alloys which are prone to cleat wear or unnecessarily heavy steel for those.
According to Zeus' 1977 catalog, the BB cups and crank fixing bolts for the 2000 crankset were also Ti. Anti-seize compound is probably a good idea assembling these as steel-Ti and Ti/Ti threaded interfaces are known to be prone to seizing.
Kurt Sperry
Bellingham Washington
USA