RE: [CR]Building wheels.

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From: "Jesse Hearndon" <viper7990@hotmail.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: RE: [CR]Building wheels.
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:05:39 -0400
In-Reply-To: <001401c921ba$84e602f0$0200a8c0@pcearle>
References: <688062.13572.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1222639114.48dffe0a6f6e8@www.mrrabbit.net>


When I did my 1984 Ciocc restoration I debated truing and re-spoking the or iginal wheels. They were pretty beat, the previous owner obviously didn't take care of this bike.

I opted for a set of hand-built FSA RD-220's, which feel about the same w eight as the original Mavic MA40's. I am all for attention to detail, but I wanted to enjoy this bike from time to time without having to worry abou t my beloved 20+ year old wheels. I still have my MA40's, just in case. B ut my FSA's really help bring a mix of modern technology into an old school frame, and the Ultegra 9-speed looks great on them.

For all you wheelsmiths out there you are awesome. I've trued and built whe els before, it is NOT an easy task. I built and trued a 4 1/2" x 20" 3-sp eed Sturmey-equipped wheel for my Schwinn Stingray Spoiler, I wanted to s hoot myself after finishing that. I had to cut all the spokes 7mm with a sp oke-cutting tool, then re-lace the wheel with the new hub. I couldn't fin d any info on spoke lengths for this wheel / hub combo since no one had rea lly measured the spoke lengths on these wheels before, so I had to eyebal l the lengths and luckily I have good eyes because all 36 lined right up. I
   scratched the rim a couple times and regret doing so but eventually I iron ed out all the issues and it rolls like a factory rim now. The scratches ar en't noticeable unless you walk right up to the frame.> From: earle.young@t ds.net> To: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> Subject: Re: [CR]Building wheels.> Date:
   Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:35:30 -0500> CC: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> > B ob,> > I'm sure you build very adequate wheels. Bicycle wheels tend to be
   very > overbuilt, so wheels built to your standards are just fine. I hap pen to > think that my attention to detail makes a better wheel.> > And I m arried and not particularly anal about other things. It's just that I > mak e a hobby of building the best possible wheels I can with any given set > o f components, and happen to get paid pretty well to do it.> > Further, personal attacks are not acceptable on this list. My offlist reply > to you
   personally will adress what I really think of you.> > With all due respect ,> Earle Young,> Madison, Wisc.> Offering expert wheelbuilding servic e for classic and modern bikes.> http://www.earleyoung.com> > ----- Original Messa ge ----- > From: <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>> To: <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>> Cc : <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>; "Earle Young" <earle.young@tds.net>> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 4:58 PM> Subject: Re: [CR]Building whe els.> > > > Once upon a time, I was presented with two fire extinguisher service > > providers.> >> > The first one said:> >> > Each fire extinguish er must be mounted exactly so many inches high, so > > many> > inches to the right of this door, and so many inches left of this door, > > must be> >> > visible from so many feet in this direction, that direction, a nd that> > direction, must have a sign appended directly above that must also be > > placed> > this many inches high, must be charged at all time to so many psi, must be> > tested every so often, and replaced every so
   often regardless of whether > > they> > had been used or not - or tested f ine....and on and on and on...> >> > The second said:> >> > I recommend two
   for this room, one for that one, and that utility vehicle > > you> > h ave, have you thought about one for that vehicle considering it's a work>
   > vehicle containing chemicals, tool, material hazards for your driver
   in > > the> > event of an incident? Oh, and a flourescent sign in each r oom indicating > > the> > general vicinity of the extinguishers is recommen ded. I'll come by every > > month> >> > and check on them for you...> >> >>
   > Guest who got the job?> >> >> > Now before you folks go firing off all b arrels of your shotguns at me in a > > knee> >> > jerk reaction - consider the fact that I'm a wheelsmith with 2000+ wheels > > of> > experience going
   all the way back to 1984.> >> >> > There's a difference between attention to detail in putting out honest > > quality> > work AND being downright ana l and unmarried.> >> >> > Seriously, just true and tension the damn thing s to the point where the > > loosest> >> > spoke meets the minimal tension YOU the builder think necessary - and you > > have> > +/- .002 in. toleranc e.> >> > If you can't achieve the above within 2 hours build time on a rear
   wheel - > > toss> >> > the rim as you probably have a defective joint or w eak spot that a drunk > > on the> >> > job allowed to pass through QA.> >>
>> > Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy most of the discussions that take pla ce > > here on> > CR - but I do find that some folks do seem to take things
   a little too > > far.> >> > Remember you are restoring a bicycle to give i t some more life for > > yourself and> >> > others who will appreciate it f or hopefully another 10, 20, 30 years....> >> > ...but it's not going t o last forever....you are not GOD...> >> > Don't fight the same battle thos e trying to preserve the original copy of > > the> > Constitution of the Un ited State of America are fighting....they are > > loosing.> >> > Instead d o both - give one some more life as is feasible as possible - but > > also>
   >> > reproduce.> >> > My Zeus won't last forever - I accept that - which i s why I don't loose > > sleep> > over the fact that it has its last pair of
   brake hoods. Nor do I loose > > sleep> > over the fact that the front whee l has one loose spoke due to a slight > > weak> > spot in the Rigida SX100>
   >> > But should I become a multi-millionaire - I wouldn't mind making my o wn> > reproductions...I don't take offense to quality reproductions.> >> > My feet are on terra firma.> >> >> > Bob Shackelford> > San Jose, CA USA>
   >> >> >> >> > Quoting Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>:>
>> >> Well, I don't pretend to be an expert, but I been building wheels
   for > >> about> >> 25 years and in the last 10 years, I don't think I've
   had a wheel built > >> by> >> anyone else. I think Earle is exactly right that even spoke tension is> >> the key to a good wheel. And the key to that , as he says, is to get the> >> wheel in approximate true and round whi le spoke tension is still low, and > >> i> >> ncrease tension on all spok es in the same small steps.> >>> >> This, I think, is why it is so much
   more difficult to get a used wheel in > >> t> >> rue and round than a new one. A well used wheel will usually have widely> >> varying spoke tension , even if that was not the case when it was new, > >> and> >> so it is much more difficult to get it true without overtensioning some > >> spo> >>
   kes. Lately, I've trued up a number of old wheels and wound up rounding>
   >> off spokes or pulling rim eyelet loose trying to true these wheels. I'v e> >> now concluded that, whereas I usually try to tension new front whee ls > >> and> >> drive side rear to about 100 kg average, this is not prac tical on old > >> wheel> >> s without getting some spoke too tight. So I've
   begun to settle for 80 o> >> r 85 kg average tension on old wheels. One th ing I might try in future i> >> s to completely detension old wheels, the n retension slowly following the > >> s> >> teps Earle describes. I've rare ly done this just because it takes more t> >> ime, but it might be this w ould actually be faster than fighting to tru> >> e> >> an old rim, and ce rtainly faster than replacing rounded off nipples or b> >> roken spokes res ulting from overtensioning. Of course, on used wheel> >> s the rims have often deformed at least to some extent, so one is > >> probably> >> seldo m going to be able to achieve the some average tension as on a new > >> whe
> >> el without overtensioning some spokes.> >>> >> By the way, anyone kn ow if the new owners of Wheelsmith offer the service > >> o> >> f recalibra ting old Wheelsmith tension meters like the original company > >> did> >> ?
   I'd probably send mine in if this were available at a resonable cost,> >
> although it isn't all that critical, since as Earle says even tension i s > >> mo> >> re important than maximum tension. So the Park tension meter , while, as> >> Earle mentions, not highly accurate, is quite adequ ate for most wheels, > >> sin> >> ce it is the tension of the spoke relat ive to each other, not the exact > >> abs> >> olute tension of any spoke , that is of prime importance.> >>> >> Regards,> >>> >> Jerry Moos> >> Big Spring, Texas, USA> >>> >>> >>> >> --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Earle Y oung <earle.young@tds.net> wrote:> >>> >> From: Earle Young <earle.young@td s.net>> >> Subject: [CR]Building wheels.> >> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist .org> >> Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 9:35 AM> >>> >> Hi all,>
   >>> >> I'm a little late coming to this thread, but having been invited to> >> weigh in, I'm gonna throw out a long post here. Skip it if you wan t, or> >> see it live at Cirque 2009.> >>> >> I want to first say that fr om everything I've read and learned by> >> experience, evenness of spoke tension is the most important parameter in> >> wheel building.> >>> >> Let me explain why. Jobst Brandt posited that the overall strength of a> >> whe el is directly proportional to the aggregate tension on the spokes.> >> Par k Tool and Barnett's Bicycle Institute both say that production> >> wheels are acceptable with spoke tension that is plus or minus 20> >> percent of t he average. Ric Hjertberg, founder of Wheelsmith, warns that> >> over-t ensioned wheels are at least as fragile as under-tensioned wheels.> >> One of the failures is cracking at the spoke holes in the rim,> >> suggesting
   that there is an absolute maximum tension for any spoke.> >>> >> So, whe n a wheel has its tightest spokes at the maximum allowable for> >> the rim , and the tension is at plus or minus 20 percent of average, then> >> t he average is going to be at roughly 80 percent of maximum. If one> >> keep s the maximum tension at the same number, as one reduces the> >> variatio n among the individual spokes, then the average tension becomes> >> highe r, and the aggregate tension along with it. By reducing the maximum> >> v ariation in spoke tension to less than 10 percent, the increase in the> >
> strength of the wheel is about 20 percent (90 percent of maximum tension>
   >> vs. 80 percent of maximum tension). If anybody has an issue with this>
>> logic, I would be glad to hear it. But if you want to dispute it, pl ease> >> do so with some numbers.> >>> >> Here's a primer on how I get ther e:> >>> >> Once I have spokes laced into the hub, but still rim-rattling loose, I> >> correct the bend at the elbow so that each spoke is forced i nto pointing> >> directly at its spoke hole in the rim.> >>> >> Then, I s nug up the spoke tension just enough to stop the rim rattling.> >> At this point, I will set the truing stand so that the side to side> >> pointers are 4 to 6 mm wider than the rim, and add tension to the wheel> >> by cha sing the high spots. My goal is that when I am at 60 percent or so> >> of f inal spoke tension, the wheel is within a millimeter of being> >> perfect ly round, and well within the side to side pointers. I try not to> >> tig hten any spoke more than half a turn at a time, and as I get closer> >> t o round, I may go around the wheel and add some tension to every spoke.>
>> During the process, I use a dishing tool to make sure I'm within my> >
> plus/minus 2mm tolerance of centered on the hub.> >>> >> At that point,
   I will use a tensiometer to tighten each spoke to exactly> >> the same ten sion, or actually as close as a Park TM-1 will allow. I do> >> this witho ut regard to roundness or trueness, just as a gauge of how> >> well the r im was made. At the end of this process, spoke tension will be> >> 75 to 80 percent of final value.> >>> >> I then move the side to side pointers to
   about 1.5 mm from the rim on> >> each side, correct the side to side tru eness and then check and re-check> >> the dish until I have a reference poi nt that is within 0.2 mm or so of> >> exactly centered.> >>> >> I then turn
   my concentration again to the roundness of the wheel. I use> >> the tensio meter to balance relative tension with the relative> >> out-of-roundness. I
   sortof use the rule that the percentage difference> >> in spoke tension sh ould be about 20 times the percentage of> >> out-of-round. On a 700 C wheel , 0.1 percent out of round is about one> >> third of a mm, and I try to
   achieve this with a tension differential in> >> the range of 2 percent. Ev ery rim has some manufactured imperfections,> >> so not every irregularit y in roundness will be correctable within this> >> ideal, and some modern
   rims are better judged by the machined-in wear> >> line than the outer edg e of the rim itself. That becomes a balancing act> >> between cosmetic impe rfection of round and true and evenness of tension.> >>> >>> >> In reality , if the final product varies by plus or minus a millimeter> >> side-to-s ide and radially, the imperfections will be imperceptable when> >> you ri de.> >>> >> I hope this helps those novices out there build better wheels. I believe> >> that properly chosen handbuilt wheels are nearly as important
   as frame> >> fit in determining overall ride satisfaction on a bicycle. Th anks for> >> reading this far.> >>> >> Earle Young,> >> Madison, Wisc.>
   >> Offering expert wheelbuilding service for classic and modern bikes.> >>
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