[CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...

(Example: Production Builders:Pogliaghi)

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:56:33 -0700
From: <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
To: tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com
References: <746617.40842.qm@web55907.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <746617.40842.qm@web55907.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...

I pasted the stuff below so folks know what I'm responding to specifically...

...and I'll say you make some good points - actually I'm in the choir you are preaching to.

Some things really scare me when reading certain posts here at CR and elsewhere....

1. The person who attributes certain metaphysical elements to a bicycle, wheel

or frame - that quite honestly it does not have. I.e.,

"It has passion. It rides with a spirit that honors the artisan tradition of generations of master builders..."

When I hear stuff like the above, I feel like I'm being sold a religion. With some folks, I feel like I'm also being sold a joint, a tye dye and a ticket to an Earth Day concert.

My attitude is once again - I'll keep my feet on terra firma thank you. It's just a bicycle or a wheel or a frame. It's just a bicycle ride - something I like to do. Oh, I'm saving the earth? Well if that is something that turns you on - well more power to you - have a nice day!

In my opinion, too many collectors and enthusiasts attribute what they see physically and "metaphysically" incorrectly to the object itself - instead of attributing it correctly to the person or people behind it.

Here on CR we have a frame builder / painter/ restorer known as Brian Baylis who not too long ago in the past restored a blue/white Gios for someone on bikeforums.net.

The word "stunning" was used to describe the result. I was in agreement - but I attributed not to the bike - but to the fact that the response was really in recognition of the fact that Mr. Baylis took the time to properly sand the frame, properly prime the frame, kept his painting tools and environment clean,

used a spray pattern and distance that minimized "orange peel" and a clean consistent clear coat, among other things.

If I've lost you try this for a laugh:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

2. The person who does the above repeatedly, and actively defends it to the point of directly or indirectly putting down others who don't agree or toe their line.

My experience in life is that such persons are either bullies, or are trying to

position themselves AS THE AUTHORITY AND THE ONE TO FOLLOW AND GATHER AROUND. Oftentimes, they are both.

Some are con artists. A friend of mine once hosted a USENET list for a type of

music ablum - and someone kept doing the above. A quiet investigation by my friend turned up the fact that the same person was also the publisher of the "blue book" for the items in question. The dude was ghost buying - then in

later editions upping the recommended selling price in his publication.

Not much different than what you see on eBay at times...

If I've lost you again...here's another classic from maddox.xmission.com...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=anime_nerd

Your example of the word "mystical" was spot on Tom. That one gets bandied about often...

Bottom line is - set a minimum standard of quality in your work and get to it -

welp - people will take notice. It's as simple as that. Go too far though - I

ask the same question you asked, "What objectifiable result are you getting for

example @3 hours that you weren't getting @2 hours?"

Nice talkin...

Bob Shackelford San Jose, CA USA

Tom, Thanks for shedding light on this, but the question was directed specifically at Earle, and having built a few hundred wheels myself and handled thousands of

machine buit wheels, I am familiar with the differences.

When the final result of a job correctly done looks the same, and IS the same, irrespective of who did it, it is NOT art. Calling wheelbuilding art contributes to the overblown mystique of this basic skill.

I realize that I sound a bit terse here, but I sometimes feel like people don't

read all the words my messages. I think it was pretty clear where I was headed

in my message to Earle, which is that I don't think he has any objective basis for his unusually high regard for his own product, and I certainly don't think of wheelbuilding as some mystical craft, let alone art. It reminds me of the day I received a resprayed frame in the mail from an unnamed painter, and without telling me he added a large, conspicuous and especially ugly decal to advertize his company under my clear coat. When I questioned it, he was puzzled as to why I took issue, and said it was "like an artist signing his work." When I choose the single color, provide the decals and specify their placement, where is the art?

Tom Dalton Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA

Quoting Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com>:
> Robert St Cyr said:
>  
> With the rims I noticed a pattern of the spokes
> closest to the seam to tension more quickly due to the thicker material in
> the rim at the seam. When at Interbike last week I asked one of the velocit
> y reps If this was the case and he said it was true. One can compensate by
> adding a 1 mm longer spoke or simply backing off the spokes in that area ju
> st slightly.
>  
>  
>  
> Robert, I know you know this, but what you've said might be confusing to
> readers.  Changing the length of the spoke does not change its final tension
> it only changes where the nipple sits along the length of the thread.  You
> might use a longer spoke in the situation that you describe in order to get
> full engagement of the spoke threads, but that does not alter the final
> tension.  If the rim builds up in a way that requires relatively tight or
> relatively loose spokes near the joint in order to get it round, as they
> often do, then it's simply a bad rim, though not necessarily unusable or
> defective.  It's a common problem, but lenghtening (or shortening) a
> spoke won't resolve it.  
>  
> This is not unlike calling the setup of indexed shifter cables a tension
> adjustment, when it is really a change to the effective cable length.
>  
>  
> Robert Shackelford wrote:
> 3.  Nipple glues (i.e., dried paint in the old days) are too often a tool
> used
> not to build a better wheel - but instead to obsfuscate a builder's
> inferiority
> complex over proper tensionsing.  Tensioning a wheel properly assuming non-
> defective parts make "glues" unneccessary.
>  
>  
> Robert, while I agree with essentailly all the other stuff you're said
> regarding the unnecessity of dial gauges (useless data for certain, unless
> you're selling specs!) and tensiometers, I strongly disagree with your
> assessment of nipple compounds.  While they may be abused by people using
> them to keep weak undertensioned wheels from rattling apart, they also have
> excellent utility in correctly built wheels.  My properly built wheels only
> got better and easier to live with when I started to use Spoke Prep.  The
> action at the nipple is smoother and you can make smaller changes in spoke
> tension, because the material acts as a lubricant.  Unlike oils and greases,
> WHICH HAVE NO PLACE ON SPOKE THREADS, Spoke Prep does not lead to unwindling,
> and actually stabilizes the nipple.  In many cases stainless spokes in brass
> nipples can corrode and sieze, and Spoke Prep eliminates this problem too.  
> As for materials that form a solid bond, like certain
> Locktite compounds, that's just a bad choice because it interferes with
> later adjustments.   So, old school stuff like honey, linseed oil, or old
> paint (new to me) might be be more period correct, but Spoke Prep is a great
> product for skilled builders.  Pure lubes (oils and greases) and glues
> (locktite) are more than a little problematic.  Lube on the nipple seat is a
> different matter, and not a problem in my experience, though I only do it
> where I can feel a need. 
>  
> Tom Harriman wrote:
>  
> Having both ridden both store bought wheels and wheels of my own making, I
> would like to shed a little light on this subject...
>  
> We should all take comfort and pride in the fact that we are helping to keep
> the art of wheel build alive and strong in our culture.
>  
>  
> Tom,
> Thanks for shedding light on this, but the question was directed specifically
> at Earle, and having built a few hundred wheels myself and handled thousands
> of machine buit wheels, I am familiar with the differences. 
>  
> When the final result of a job correctly done looks the same, and IS
> the same, irrespective of who did it, it is NOT art.  Calling wheelbuilding
> art contributes to the overblown mystique of this basic skill.  
>  
> I realize that I sound a bit terse here, but I sometimes feel like people
> don't read all the words my messages.  I think it was pretty clear where I
> was headed in my message to Earle, which is that I don't think he has any
> objective basis for his unusually high regard for his own product, and I
> certainly don't think of wheelbuilding as some mystical craft, let alone
> art.  It reminds me of the day I received a resprayed frame in the mail from
> an unnamed painter, and without telling me he added a large, conspicuous and
> especially ugly decal to advertize his company under my clear coat.  When I
> questioned it, he was puzzled as to why I took issue, and said it was "like
> an artist signing his work."  When I choose the single color, provide the
> decals and specify their placement, where is the art?
>  
> Tom Dalton
> Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Tom Dalton
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
> saved in a permanent database.

--
PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
saved in a permanent database.