Another interesting and highly emotional?thread here on the CR, and to me?I have to say Jon has probably best caught the reality;?showing that SO much of cycling is subjective, especially when it comes to?how a bike rides.?I feel?the only way you can really?compare different frames/bikes is to ride the exact same wheels and equipment on the same day over the same course, f or the same distance, otherwise there are just too many variables (includin g fitness) that can influence how the bike rides. And?how many times have y ou ridden a bike one day and it feels great and the next time, even though no changes, you wondered who raised the seat, lengthened the stem, let the air out of the tires, brakes are rubbing...in other words a different ride because YOU felt different.? Also, in my experience to even make generaliti es about a specific frame can be misleading. On many occasions I 've had th e opportunity to ride what were supposed to be the EXACT same bike from a m aker (size, geometry, equipment, tubing etc.) and they rode?very different and can't explain why. ?And to generalize to a specific country also seems to be stretching it as again each manufacturer, even from the same country, ?has an idea as to what is appropriate geometry, tubing, etc. and what?is right to me may not be?for you. Masis ride different than Colnagos, than Vi ners, than De Rosa; and Harry Quinns are different than Raleighs, than Bob Jacksons, well, you get the picture. And then, as Jon notes, ?to get into d ifferent models of a maker, or different generations just adds more. From t his string, (and many others here) ?it's readily apparent that individuals have a leaning toward certain countries or manufacturers (me, I tend to lik e Italian), but that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the other bikes; there's room for all. And it's a good thing that we all lean towards differ ent countries and makers or there wouldn't be enough bikes for?everyone! :- )
Rex Gilmore Vienna, VA
-----Original Message----- From: Jon Spangler <hudsonspangler@earthlink.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 3:53 am Subject: Re: [CR] FR versus ITAL versus ENG versus JAPAN...
Bikies,?
?
I do not want to add fuel to any flame wars here, but I have noticed defini
te differences between?
many higher-end bikes that I have ridden, and I believe that a reasonable p
erson (meaning a relatively skilled?
cyclist who is sensitive to handling characteristics, as those Bob Shackelf
ord enumerated) can discern these differences?
relatively easily. (Jan and his BQ crew recently did some relatively object
ive frame testing that produced?
?test results that support this.)?
?
(NOTE: I do NOT recommend any manner of "blindfolded" or "double-blind" tes
ting for safety reasons.?
Similarly, no one should one ride a bicycle after a day of wine tasting in
Napa or Sonoma.)?
?
While I am no expert on this, I suspect that our respective body types, rid
ing styles, emotional and psychological makeups,?
ages, and a host of other individual variables will also affect our choices
in "feel" and our ratings of particular handling?
characteristics one over the other. In short, cycling is an intensely perso
nal and individualized sport, and there are many?
physical and emotional factors that affect our individual choices of bikes,
components, and handling characteristics.?
?
Having noted the individualistic nature of evaluating the "feel" or "ride"
of a particular bike, I believe a strong case can be?
made for the "nationalistic" or "cultural" view of design, including bicycl
es. Culture expresses itself in many ways, and one?
of those manifestations is in the "flavor" of the goods we design and manuf
acture. (Most of us can recognize cultural similarities?
among cars designed by different US companies that differentiate them from
their German-designed counterparts, for instance.)?
It may also be extremely important to distinguish between various eras or p
eriods of bike and frame design within each "design culture."?
The English racing frames of the 1920s-1930s are not the same as the Englis
h racing frames of the 1960s or the 1970s, for instance.?
History counts. Design cultures, just like music or visual arts, are influe
nced by both domestic innovation and foreign invasions.?
?
It is not surprising to me that the French bikes I have owned and ridden al
l seem to share a similar "feel." My UO-18 mixte feels?
much like it has the same cultural and design "genes" that my PX-10s did, o
r the Motobecanes and Gitanes I have ridden. Indeed,?
I bought my still-unridden mid-1970s Allegro (Swiss) based on many assuranc
es that it would "feel" French or "continental, because it used?
the same metric 531 tubes and came from a French-speaking canton of Switzer
land. And it had the frame dimensions to prove it, too:?
long 55 CM TT on a 52 CM c-c SEAT, relaxed angles (versus most ITAL or some
BRIT frames of the same period), long (42 CM) stays, etc.?
?
I would never buy a Miyata, an Austro-Daimler, a TREK, a Cinelli, or a Masi
and expect it to ride like a Peugeot PX-10LE. And I'll bet?
?that no one would confuse an Alan or my Eisentraut for one, either. But yo
u could get noticeably closer to a PX with a comparable Gitane or?
Motobecane, IMHO, and these subtle differences would be discernible. Likewi
se, I suspect that a defensible definition of an "Italian?
bike design school" principles or themes could be developed that would acco
unt for most of the similarities between at least the major?
concurrent builders of Italian bikes such as Colnago, Cinelli, Masi, Poghli
ahi, Benotto, Atala, etc.?
?
(It does not matter, for my purposes here, whether one uses a relatively sc
ientific evaluation method or a personal and?
subjective one. Both are equally valid, and the results should be comparabl
e, given a sufficiently sophisticated testing methodology,?
if such a thing were to be developed. But in a sense, it is irrelevant.)?
?
Some of us are engineers and scientists who measure everything technically:
wheel weight in grams, understeer/oversteer i bike handling,?
trail, modulus of elasticity, tensile strength, etc. Others of us (I am a s
ensate and intuitive type) evaluate things by "feel," visual impact,?
risk aversion or thrill-seeking, or some other non-rational method(s). All
of them are valid, and none of us are the same, so our individual?
mileage WILL vary, as has been said here before.?
?
The good news is that there is still room enough for all of us in Dale's Ga
rage--as long as we behave, and as long as everyone acknowledges?
that I'm always right. (wink, wink!)?
?
Jon Spangler?
up too late in Alameda, CA USA?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
On Mar 22, 2009, at 8:55 PM, <classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org> wrote
:?
?
>?
> Message: 5?
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:26:34 -0700?
> From: donald gillies <gillies@ece.ubc.ca>?
> Subject: Re: [CR] Ride Report on early 80's Zunow?
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>?
> Cc: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net?
> Message-ID: <20090323032634.C82A8EC89@ug14.ece.ubc.ca>?
> Content-Type: text/plain?
>?
> Jerry,?
>?
> to coin a Geico term, we have a lot of junior members on CR and also?
> "Cave Men" who have not ridden all those marquees that you apparently?
> have in your stable. And actually, I have never ridden an italian?
> bike, unless of course you consider my ALAN to be a typical italian?
> bike, and I never ridden a french bike, except perhaps for a peugeot?
> mixte that belonged to a neighbor's mom and that I tried for a few?
> minutes when I was 15 and I thought it had a spectacular ride.?
>?
> So to me, you're saying the bike feels more like a carbon-steel?
> Peugeot Mixte with Simplex Delrin gears, than it feels like my?
> Super-Record ALAN ?? Is that the message you are trying to get?
> across???
>?
> I honestly don't know what it means to say, "The bike feels more?
> Italian the French" ... Could you please elaborate? Thanx.?
>?
> - Don "Cave Man" Gillies?
> San Diego, CA, USA?
>?
>?
>?
?
Jon Spangler?
Writer/Editor?
Linda Hudson Writing?
510-864-0370/FAX 864-2144?
MOBILE 510-846-5356?
hudsonspangler@earthlink.net?
http://www.linkedin.com/