"Someone just cut off the tubes and stuffed them in the lugs."
Funny you should mention this...
Back in the mid-80s I changed the BB in my Peugeot with 501 tubes and 103 forks. Apparently the tubes entering the BB shell were not mitered at all. In
order to get a new plastic shell in in place of a non-existing one - I had to ream out the ends of the tubes while avoiding damage to the BB shell threads. All four tubes - yes chainstay tubes included - were sticking in a good 1/4 inch. It was a helluva messy job.
Had to do the same to a friends similar model Peugeot as well. Was quite taken
aback by this - had never seen this at the time - even on el cheapo Benottos.
=8-)
Robert Shackelford San Jose, CA USA
Quoting verktyg <verktyg@aol.com>:
> Kevin,
>
> Thanks for the comments and update on current European builders. I tried
> to choose my comments carefully so as to not raise any hackles
> especially since I have no experience with present day custom builders
> over there.
>
> The accuracy employed by many American frame builders especially in
> mitering main tubes and tube alignment far exceeds what is necessary to
> build a functioning frame. I was guilty of that myself when I built some
> frames back in the mid 70s.
>
> When we started building frames our goal was not to get into the custom
> frame business. We explored building bikes and components here in the US.
>
> After the US Bike Boom craze ended the demand for entry level "10 speed"
> bikes fell off. The market for midrange bikes was starting to grow as
> cyclists were looking for better quality second bikes.
>
> There was a shortage of midrange to better quality European bikes both
> because of the unfavorable exchange rate at the time and many European
> makers didn't have a US presence after the Bike Boom ended: Raleigh,
> Peugeot and Motobecane were that main players with Bianchi to a lesser
> degree.
>
> The frames that I built were intended to get a first hand understanding
> of how changes in geometry affected ride and handling. In addition I was
> developing processes for building production frames and also how to
> train workers in frame building.
>
> As you mentioned about jigs, I was concerned about residual stresses
> after brazing too. Our jig was custom built for us by a machinist who
> was also an avid cyclist. He modified the design several time for us. I
> learned to loosen some of the tube clamps before moving to the next
> joint so as to prevent stress buildup.
>
> My negative comments were based on having to realign poorly built frames
> from many top name European builders.
>
> When I was figuring out frame building (there was no one to learn from)
> I started by doing autopsies of wrecked frames. Once I cut open a
> totaled mid 60s frame built by a premier Italian house. For starters it
> was a 50cm frame made with heavy gage tubing, probably Columbus SP. The
> biggest surprise was there was no mitering on the frame tubes at all!
> There was a 1/4" (6mm) gap between the ends of the top and down tubes
> and the head tube. Someone just cut off the tubes and stuffed them in
> the lugs.
>
> I witnessed an ex-pat European frame builder make a frame freehand one
> Saturday afternoon. We were headed to an out of state race that day and
> one of the rider's bikes fell off the bike rack at 65 mph; his frame was
> totaled. Lucky for him the builder was located in the town where the
> race was being held. He raced on the frame in the morning, even though
> the paint wasn't completely dry.
>
> It's easy for a craftsman with 20 plus years of frame building to
> "eyeball" the tubes for length but 2-3 lick with a file doesn't
> constitute mitering in my book. The only measurements taken on the frame
> were at the end when he "aligned" the dropouts with Campy dropout tools
> before the frame was painted.
>
> Granted it was a rush job but that seemed to be the person's standard
> procedure.
>
> Several years ago I bought a 1988 Colnago Technos frame from a local
> frame builder (OT but KOF). He said the the original owner complained
> that the bike handled weird. My friend realigned the forks which were
> quite a bit out but that didn't help. The owner ended up trading in the
> frame for a custom built one.
>
> I checked the alignment before starting to assemble that frame. The rear
> triangle was off to one side by 7/16" (11mm). We put the frame on a
> layout/alignment table and found that the head and seat tubes where out
> of parallel by over a 1/4" in each direction (1/2" total). That frame
> should have never left the factory in that condition!
>
> I have dozens of horror stories like that but I'll spare you...
>
> There are many beautiful bikes that don't handle well; frequently
> because the frames are misaligned. The point I wanted to make, is that
> these frames were made by the hands of men not divine spirits. There is
> no excuse for these kinds of things since it's so easy to eliminate the
> problems during brazing!
>
> Chas. Colerich
> Oakland, CA USA
>
>
> kevin sayles wrote:
> > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:11 AM
> > Subject: [CR] Frame Alignment: Ugly scratches and Useful bike tools
> >
> > Hi Chas,
> > Naturally my attention was grabbed by your statement below..........
> >
> > Whilst I can't speak of other European framebuilders, I know I'm more
> > than happy with the standards I set myself.
> >
> > It is true that many of the established European builders methods leave
> > a lot to be desired.....but then I can say that about certain American
> > framebuilders, some with a almost 'God like' following adopt certain
> > methods that I wouldn't choose to emulate.
> >
> > A frame made in a jig doesn't automatically mean it will be superior to
> > one made 'freehand'......infact I would argue by saying a jig is prone
> > to imposing built in stresses.
> >
> > My method is to set up the frame on a table, which, even though it is
> > accurate is only used for setting and not for alignment, the frame is
> > continually checked for track during the process of brazing each
> > individual joint, but I do have custom made apparatus that enables tubes
> > to remain in alignment during brazing.
> >
> > We used to have a Italian made jig, which I hated, every frame that came
> > off it was always out of track.......eventually we sold it, and I went
> > back to using a setting up table....which is how I was taught by Danny
> > Foster at Bob Jackson's.......which promts me to question the statement
> > about a chainstay being 1/2" shorter!.......that's a huge ammount, the
> > wheel would probably have been so far to one side that the tyre would
> > have touched the inside of the chainstay!
> >
> > Chas, my intentions with this message are, certainly not to be
> > arguementative, or nasty, but to merely 'put up some defence' for
> > European framebuilders.......though between you and me, some do fall
> > into the category that you refer to, as I'm sure some American builders
> > do. [like you say, 'most' American frame builders]
> >
> > Its just that whenever I see reference to American frame builders being
> > so much better than anyone else it naturally hits a 'nerve'......I'm
> > sure you can understand this.
> > [tell you what you are good at though, and that's the paint
> > jobs!!....Keith Anderson, Brian Baylis etc........superb!]
> > Regards......Kevin
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> > Chas wrote;-
> > I agree completely with several posters that most American frame
> > builders set a quality standard that has rarely been met by ANY of the
> > European builders.
> >
> >> Many famous name European frames were (and still are) built without
> >> the benefit of a jig or any fixturing. Tubing fit was "eye-balled" and
> >> a lot of frames were assembled with main tubes that weren't even
> >> accurately mitered. After brazing, the frames were cold set to an
> >> approximation of proper alignment.
> >>
> >> In a properly aligned frame the wheels should be parallel on a
> >> horizontal and vertical plane with the centerline of the bike. The
> >> dropouts should be equal distance from the centerline too. Head and
> >> seat tubes should be parallel. Fork blades should be equal length and
> >> have the same amount of bend and rake or trail. The front axle should
> >> be parallel to the front of the fork crown and the rear axle parallel
> >> to the bottom bracket.
> >>
> >> A well aligned frame doesn't have any pull to either side and tracks
> >> well through corners especially when descending.
> >>
> >> While there are other elements of frame geometry that come into play,
> >> a properly aligned frame will handle better than one that's out of
> >> alignment.
> >>
> >> Anecdotal tale in reference to the growth of mail order sales in the 70s:
> >>
> >> In 1977 someone brought a brand new all Campy Bob Jackson bike into
> >> our shop. It was beautiful, black and tan with crisp decals,
> >> pinstriping and a shiny clearcoat. It was one of the nicest finished
> >> frames I've ever seen.
> >>
> >> The "customer" had just received it from mail order house in Southern
> >> California that was pushing a lot of Bob Jacksons, Colnagos and other
> >> well known brand frames.
> >>
> >> He complained that the bike was "pulling". I took it out for a test
> >> ride and brought it back in less than half a block. It was pulling was
> >> an understatement! It wanted to go in circles!
> >>
> >> I put it up on the stand and immediately saw that one chainstay was
> >> over 1/2" shorter than the other. I showed him the problem and
> >> politely sent him on his way.
> >>
> >> The term "Hand Crafted" applies to many of the bikes that are the
> >> topic of the CR group. None were created by divine touch!
> >>
> >> As such these creations are rarely going to be perfect but they should
> >> at least ride and handle well by intent not accident.
> >>
> >> Chas. Colerich
> >> Oakland, CA USA
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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