I agree with your point about buyers' diligence and for this reason, like you, I am also not interested in this bike. Dutch auctions, doubts among experts about paint originality, wrong derailleur, an unexplained APO address, and acknowledgment that the seller is "quite savvy in manipulating eBay", are not qualities that encourage confidence in purchasing this cycle. I suspect that acquiring alleged Molteni Team bikes through images would be even more risky than buying this bike. George George Hollenberg MD CT, USA
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:05 AM, gtsoftley@ozemail.com.au <
gtsoftley@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> Hi George,
> I know the seller and I am not in the market for this bike. I know the back
> story of this bike and it is genuine. This bike originated from Como and
> the original owner is also known by me.
> The seller is a guy who lives in Vicenza, has made himself known to a lot
> of the old collectors in that part of the world who sell him rare items and
> is a very useful contact. His parents were ex employees of Campagnolo. I
> really like the guy and have regular chats with him. He is quite savvy in
> the way he manipulates ebay, but at the same time he does not defraud
> anyone and is of good character. He has had a quick learning curve about
> high end bike technicalities and sometimes relies on the advice of others.
> Sometimes this can let him down.
> With this bike, as he does with everything he touches, it is spotless. He
> makes his money by buying items that need cleaning and polishing and
> on-selling them. Like Stefan, he sees a lot of bikes go thru his hands but
> keeps very few.
> After the lashing he got from the CR list, I thought he deserved a word or
> two in his favour. I have nothing to gain from this, but being the owner of
> 10 pre 1972 Cinellis, a price precedent that he might set might be a good
> thing for me too.
> Back to your points, ebay is a vehicle for international private sales that
> have no guarantee. That is part of the deal when you buy from ebay and
> should be factored into a bid. Sometimes bad ads can lead to bargains....I
> bought my C35 for 700 pounds due to a poor quality listing. It is probably
> worth in excess of 10K. You can win.
> Within your own country litigation over items worth less than maybe 20K are
> purely bread and butter for lawyers with the chance of anything left over
> after legal fees a rarity...quite often just a large bill. The idea of
> enforcing a contract internationally would work as effectively as the
> original League of Nations reigning in Hitler and no one would be crazy
> enough to initiate an international legal case based on the truthfullness
> of an ebay ad.
> Ebay does it's best to attempt to have sellers verified via feedback their
> honesty and integrity. Still, I beleive buyer beware. I think what we saw
> in regards to experts commenting on the paint was that even if this bike
> was purchased under a contract where an independant expert could have the
> final say in regards to it's originality, several 'experts' had several
> different opinions. These opinions also changed depending upon what other
> experts noticed ir missed.
> Obviously it becomes the responsibility of the buyer to be diligent, know
> their stuff and be certain of what they are buying.
> Case in point are the Molteni bikes and frames that I have been gathering
> this last year. There is so much undeniable proof that Ernesto built frames
> for Molteni during the mid to late 60s that has surfaced recently that my
> hunch a year ago has been validated many times over with proof coming from
> many different sources. Due diligence pays off...and so it will with the
> Cinelli in question and at a price that is much more in line with it's
> proper value. It would have been nice to see campy brakes and bivalent hubs
> on this Cinelli like the '69 model SC NOS that Stefan sold a few years ago.
> Cheers
> Greg
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: George Hollenberg ghollmd@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:10:46 -0500
> To: gtsoftley@ozemail.com.au, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli paint original?
>
>
> Using images published on eBay it becomes obvious that even experts cannot
> determine whether this bike is repainted or not.
> eBay provides no guarantee for items purchased in its sales and it is not
> obvious what country's law would govern the sale of this bike.
> The seller casts questions about himself by his use of the "dutch" auction
> technique, although again, anything goes on eBay.
> Unless a potential buyer could work out a proper enforceable contract with
> the seller, this is probably a bike sale best avoided.
> George
> George Hollenberg MD
> CT, USA
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Greg S <gtsoftley@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Hi John and crew,
> > The word back from Italy is that the paint is original and not a repaint.
> > Take a look around the fork tang area and you will see excessive 'patina'
> or
> > discoloration.... which says a lot about the original uniformity of
> factory
> > Cinelli paint or conversely the effects that certain greases have on
> Cinelli
> > Silver paint.
> > I know by experience that this bike would have been thoroughly detailed
> > before being presented on ebay. I wouldnt be surprised if all of the
> clamp
> > on fittings would have been carefully removed and replaced so as to
> achieve
> > a uniformity of surface tone after cleaning and polishing. I know we love
> > patina, but the Italians seem to like 'as new' as we have seen with
> several
> > bikes recently restored which arguably should have remained in their
> natural
> > state.
> > Link again
> > http://www.flickr.com/
> > Greg Softley
> > Australia
> >
> > John says......
> > Brian raises great points and I respect his expertise. The NOS early 70's
> > Cinelli I owned exhibited obvious yellowing only in areas where there may
> > have been residual grease. But, it could be that there was an overall
> > yellowing that only would be apparent if my bike where side-by-side with
> a
> > freshly painted one.
> >
> > Greg Softley- could we trouble you to ask your friend if his eBay
> Cinelli
> > has been repainted to his knowledge?
> >
> > John Barron
> > Minneapolis MN USA
> > http://www.velostuf.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
>
>
>
> --
> George
>
> George Hollenberg MD
> CT, USA
>
>
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>
>
>
-- George
George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA