Re: [CR] Bernard Carre frame on French Ebay

(Example: Framebuilders:Cecil Behringer)

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:52:08 -0800
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, Norris Lockley <nlockley73@googlemail.com>
In-Reply-To: <29cfc1e00911170210l408d8f12ta6b8e90db973134d@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [CR] Bernard Carre frame on French Ebay


Well, I think the B. Carre on the seatstay eyes is pretty conclusive, and this is in the Carre style, and we have the authoritative testimony of Jaouen and Norris. No doubt a Carre. What I question is whether it is actually a Motobecane as marked. Note that nowhere in the auction does Jaoun claim that it really is a Motobecane, and in assesing its value the Carre origin is much more important than what company's livery it originally carried. But the decals are clearly nonoriginal, particualrly the MBK decals, which are a couple of decades newer than to frame. MBK is the brand Motobecane has been using since emerging from bankruptcy, which I believe occrred in the 80's. Evidently the Motobecane name and logo was sold off in bankruptcy and is now sadly applied to lower end Chinese made TIGed Al bikes sold through bike store chains (and unfortunately the Mercier name and logo more recently fell into the same hands.)

Carre built for a number of marques, so Motobecane can't be ruled out, but he is probably most associated Sauvage-LeJeune, who Norris points out were only just up the road. And assuming the paint might be original, it happily matches the signature LeJeune color. Now were this a mid 70's frame redecaling it as a LeJeune would seem an attractive solution, as many LeJeunes in the 70's (including mine) carried simple white block letters with the LeJeune name. But as it is 50's, a problem arises in regard to the Sauvage bit of the Sauvage-LeJeuene livery. The decals will probably be hard to obtain and likely have not been widely reproduced, in part because the decals and even the name have today become highly politically incorrect.

Regards,

Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA


--- On Tue, 11/17/09, Norris Lockley wrote:


> From: Norris Lockley <nlockley73@googlemail.com>

\r?\n> Subject: [CR] Bernard Carre frame on French Ebay

\r?\n> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

\r?\n> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 4:10 AM

\r?\n> Hello Greg,

\r?\n>

\r?\n> You will be able to sleep easily tonight in the knowledge

\r?\n> that your money

\r?\n> will have been very well spent on the Bernard Carre frame

\r?\n> you just bought

\r?\n> off Sceno in Paris.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> As the seller Sceno - Jaouen  has just told us in his

\r?\n> email the frame is an

\r?\n> authemtic Carre...and has the curved plate top-eyes stamped

\r?\n> B Carre to prove

\r?\n> it

\r?\n>

\r?\n> The frame is rare as it is an early Carre, probably dating

\r?\n> from the mid 50s

\r?\n> to early 60s, at a time when he used round fork

\r?\n> blades  in that unusual

\r?\n> two-plate fork crown, and those odd Huret drop-outs. .

\r?\n> Typical also of Carre

\r?\n> is the fact that the seat lug, probably a Nervex or Oscar

\r?\n> Egg does not match

\r?\n> with the Prugnat head lugs. The other unusual feature is

\r?\n> the style in which

\r?\n> Carre has finished off the ends of the fork blades and the

\r?\n> seat and

\r?\n> chainstays. Normally he scollops them out with a round

\r?\n> file, but the case of

\r?\n> this frame he has left the ends domed on the outside and

\r?\n> cut square on the

\r?\n> inside.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> As you state in your email to the List, Carre worked very

\r?\n> extensively as a

\r?\n> sub-contractor and supplier to the trade and quite a lot of

\r?\n> trade/Pro teams.

\r?\n> What you need to do now is to discover which trade teams of

\r?\n> the period in

\r?\n> question rode Huret gears - certainly Stella did. The other

\r?\n> possibility is

\r?\n> that the Huret ends were the only ones on Carre's bench top

\r?\n> at the time, as

\r?\n> he seeems to have a reputation for using whatever was

\r?\n> readily available to

\r?\n> hand. Some of my Carre frames have odd mixes of fork ends

\r?\n> and lugs. Carre

\r?\n> was very fond of Pillar Box red paint.. so this frame could

\r?\n> well be wearing

\r?\n> its original paintwork...or it could have been a frame

\r?\n> built for the Sauvage

\r?\n> -Lejeune team, whose headquarters were about 10 kms up the

\r?\n> road from

\r?\n> Jaouen's home. Had the frame been built for a specific team

\r?\n> member the

\r?\n> rider's initials would have been stamped on the top-eyes.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> I had got my eye on the frame and there wasn't a bid on it

\r?\n> when I went to

\r?\n> bed in the early hours of this morning and had hoped it

\r?\n> would remain unsold

\r?\n> until I got up. If all goes well in the next two days I

\r?\n> shall be going back

\r?\n> to France and intend calling on Jaouen , en route, to see

\r?\n> what gems he has

\r?\n> lurking about in his cellar. I had hoped to take the Carre

\r?\n> off his hands..

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Of course you could change your mind about the frame if you

\r?\n> remain

\r?\n> unconvinced about it. The chainset's extraction threads are

\r?\n> in a bad way so

\r?\n> you might have real difficulties removing the cranks

\r?\n> without damaging the

\r?\n> frame. As Jaouen states in his email to the List...he is

\r?\n> willing to cancel

\r?\n> the auction...

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Come on Greg..if you feel like a damsel in distress about

\r?\n> this frame.. then

\r?\n> I will be your knight in shining armour..and get you out of

\r?\n> the mess.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> I have onlly seen one other Carre like this one and the

\r?\n> last time I saw it,

\r?\n> it was hanging on a peg in a workshop about 30 minutes away

\r?\n> from Jaouen's

\r?\n> house..so it looks as though I shall have to make a

\r?\n> deviation to see whether

\r?\n> it is still  available.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Come on Greg, you know that you already have too many

\r?\n> frames in your stable

\r?\n> !!

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Norris Lockley

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Settle UK