Re: [CR] Flying Gate

(Example: Framebuilders:Alex Singer)

From: "Neil Foddering" <neilfoddering@hotmail.com>
To: <arthur@aknowler.co.uk>, Rendezvous Classic <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:38:07 +0000
In-Reply-To: <8361447A9B3645D68E6017EEED8ABC9F@Arthur>
References: <mailman.9850.1258435746.72377.classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] Flying Gate


I believe that "Whirlwind" was the post-war nomenclature; all of the pre-war catalogues I've seen refer to the short-wheelbase frames as the V38, VS37 and International TT, and make no mention of a Whirlwind model.

Neil Foddering Weymouth, Dorset, England


> From: arthur@aknowler.co.uk
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:28:15 +0000
> Subject: Re: [CR] Flying Gate
>
> Hi listmembers,
>
> First let me admit to some partisanship. Trevor Jarvis is a friend of mine
> and I have two "modern" Flying Gates.
>
> The chainstays on mine are about one and a half inches shorter than on
> comparable standard frames in my collection. The original Baines were called
> Whirlwind 37, a tip to their short wheelbase 37" instead of 40" or so.
> Claims are often made for the shorter wheelbase offering better climbing but
> in practice I'm not sure at all. It does make a very whippy track iron and
> that's a difference I really notice on the track (path???) and road.
>
> The real reason for having one though has to be bragging rights for such a
> cool and different frame. Both of mine turn heads regularly, and not just
> among cyclists. My fixed wheel bike has very fancy handmade lugs which are
> something that just about only Trevor does in the UK now - he builds them up
> from sheet steel blanks - they're not bi-laminated. Everyone else I know of
> is limited to more or less stock lug designs.
>
> Back in the day I'm sure the Baines brothers proposed the design for very
> similar reasons that Horace Bates and Solly Hetchins did theirs at around
> the same time - product visibility, but isn't this kind of difference the
> reason some of us collect bikes in the first place?
>
> Arthur Knowler
> Southend on sea
> Essex
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:18:57 -0800
> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR] [Baines] Flying Gate
> To: <crumpy6204@aol.com>, Classic Rendezvous
> <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <hsachs@alumni.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <249379.21166.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Well, I must like funk points, as i have a genuine Baines Whirlwind TT.
> Evidently refinished, the paint and decals are much too good to be original.
> Bought the frameset a few years ago, but haven't built it up. Maybe I'll
> move it to the head of the list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
>
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Harvey Sachs <hmsachs@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Harvey Sachs <hmsachs@verizon.net>
> > Subject: Re: [CR] [Baines] Flying Gate
> > To: crumpy6204@aol.com, "Classic Rendezvous"
> <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 8:15 PM
> > Well, John,
> > Let me assure you that I don't have one, and won't have
> > one. I'm not necessarily opposed to ornament (I do, for
> > example, have a Hetchins), but to me the Flying Gate is a
> > triumph of patient labor over common sense or sound
> > engineering. It "allows" one to make and finish seven more
> > brazed joints than a conventional design needs, and every
> > one of those takes time and costs money. If you just enlarge
> > the first picture, and lay a piece of paper parallel to the
> > stub seat tube, the flying gate design hasn't moved the seat
> > more than an inch forward of the normal position (the edge
> > of the paper as straight edge intersects the down tube just
> > barely forward of the BB). And using the same trick, there's
> > a couple of inches between where the front edge of the rear
> > tire would intersect the back of the extended seat tube if
> > it were extended.
> >
> > My guess is that this, like the "curly" stay Hetchins and
> > the "Cantiflex" with "diadrant" (?) recurved forks was an
> > effort to do almost anything to make your brand identifiable
> > in races where no brand markings were allowed. Or did the
> > makers actually believe their hype?
> >
> > BTW, one list member has an Andy Hamel with similar layout,
> > but fully lugless.
> >
> > But, it gets lots of Funk points, something I've always
> > cherished.
> >
> > harvey sachs, feeling downright curmudgeonly
> > mcLean va.
> >
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > John Crump wrote:
> > Item#300364710017 Baines Flying gate. Looking at the photo
> > and having NEVER ridden one. What was gained by the design?
> > the fork rake on this older one would negate I would think
> > any advantage of the frame design.The point of the saddle
> > must be way behind the bottom bracket.with the long top tube
> > and sitting so far back.steering the bloody thing must have
> > been a chore. OR am I wrong as usual? lets hear from you CR
> > members who have one, Maybe Dave Moulton could comment on
> > this, I understand the reason for the design was to shorten
> > the wheelbase? would this be an advantage in climbing?
> > Cheers John Crump OldandstretchedoutenoughBrit, Parker. Co
> > USA