Wouldn't the wheel builder be the best person to ask, since he built them?
Jay Sexton Sebastopol, CA
Message: 7 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:11:16 +0000 From: Ken <ken@kfhume.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: [CR] Spanish Spoke Lace To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <39947E62ACE8414A8130D37EA54EB682@laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
My winter bike wheels (Normandy hubs and Mavic MA2 rims) have just come back from the wheel shop after a respoke with Italian stainless spokes to try and solve a clicking spoke issue. I note that the wheel builder has employed a rather unusual technique to lace the spokes and he calls this Spanish lace.
The Spanish lace appears to be a combination of radial spoke lacing and 2X spoke lacing (forward and reverse) on adjacent spokes with all the spoke heads being inserted from the inside face of the hub flange.
A picture of this hub and spoke weave can be found at
I wonder why the wheel builder has chosen to employ this lace pattern other than as a cure for 3X lacing boredom ?
Are any technical advantages or disadvantages known about this spoke lace pattern ?
Regards
Ken Hume London, England
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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: EA 100 DURA ACE HUB? (robertsasher@aol.com)
> 2. Re: Lejeune (Jerry Tenenberg)
> 3. Re: Lejeune (Jerome & Elizabeth Moos)
> 4. Re: Hetchins? Carlton? (Carb7008@cs.com)
> 5. Re: Hetchins? Carlton? (Bruce Kwasha)
> 6. Re: Lejeune (LTravers)
> 7. Spanish Spoke Lace (Ken)
> 8. Re: Lejeune (oroboyz@aol.com)
> 9. Re: Spanish Spoke Lace (dtshifter@aol.com)
> 10. Detour De France (Patrick Doody)
> 11. Re: Lejeune (Jerry Tenenberg)
> 12. Re: Spanish Spoke Lace (John Betmanis)
> 13. Re: Lejeune (Jerry Tenenberg)
> 14. Re: Spanish Spoke Lace (M-gineering)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:55:54 -0500
> From: <robertsasher@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] EA 100 DURA ACE HUB?
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <8CC50003F5CA27C-2F94-2CA39@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> My rear large flange dura ace hub has 2 cracks in the flange directly opposing each other,one is worse than the other ,but terminal as I understand it? my question is can it be reapaired? or does anyone happen to have a large flange shell that could be bought?these are the ea100 with oil port, with rear spacing of 120mm (5speed) ,thanks Brad Sasher ,Atlanta ,Ga USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:17:45 -0800
> From: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
> To: LTravers <lat7575@swbell.net>, <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <11DACCF5FF55584E980EA4ADF66A8F82A0B784@SBS.herbtrade.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Hi Lynn,
> Here is where I posted the photos of the Lejeune:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/
>
> So far I have been told a 72 or 73, what say you?
> Thank you.
>
> Jerry Tenenberg
> Encinitas, Cal
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:49:31 -0800
> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
> To: LTravers <lat7575@swbell.net>, <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>,
> Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> Message-ID: <700681.11138.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The decals are identical to my 1973, although mine is an F-70 French equipped PX-10 equivalent, while yours is the all-Campy model which I believe was called the Champion du Monde. Note the bike is all red, no panels, plain white block letters with no border. Only a year or two earlier, red top end LeJeunes had blue panels and blue borders on the white letters. So I'm guessing 1973 or maybe a year or two later. Could be 1972, but I think no earlier than that. A nice bike in what looks to be very nice original condition.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
>> To: "LTravers" <lat7575@swbell.net>, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 11:17 PM
>>
>> Hi Lynn,
>> Here is where I posted the photos of the Lejeune:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/
>>
>> So far I have been told a 72 or 73, what say you?
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Jerry Tenenberg
>> Encinitas, Cal
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:05:49 -0500
> From: <Carb7008@cs.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Hetchins? Carlton?
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <cac.5e873ee3.3860784d@cs.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Thought I'd pipe-in on this bike since I've seen it up close and actually
> considered buying it (as a my size Hetchins) 2 or 3 yrs ago when it was at a
> different Sacramento LBS. Its very pretty and component mix is nice
> vintage. Probably be a nice Carlton for someone who could/would overlook its
> pretence.
>
> Jack Romans
> Sacramento, California
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:30:23 -0500
> From: Bruce Kwasha <kwashabc@merakcorp.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Hetchins? Carlton?
> To: <Carb7008@cs.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7B0A5111E2BE4F1DB128E89FCF108760@headquarters.merakcorp.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> >From my experience, this bike, a 60's Carlton International is much rarer
> than most Hetchins models. It was originally cheaper than a Hetchins, but
> the lug work on this particular example seems to be especially good.
>
> If it were my size, I would be tempted to purchase it and restore it.
>
> I am lucky enough to have obtained a similar chromed R/P version. They are
> quite beautiful!
>
> Bruce Kwasha
> Atlanta, Georgia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Carb7008@cs.com
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 2:06 AM
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Hetchins? Carlton?
>
> Thought I'd pipe-in on this bike since I've seen it up close and actually
> considered buying it (as a my size Hetchins) 2 or 3 yrs ago when it was at a
>
> different Sacramento LBS. Its very pretty and component mix is nice
> vintage. Probably be a nice Carlton for someone who could/would overlook
> its
> pretence.
>
> Jack Romans
> Sacramento, California
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4668 (20091207) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4668 (20091207) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:37:58 -0600
> From: LTravers <lat7575@swbell.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
> To: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID: <4B2F7A36.5080109@swbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> Wow. Very nice. I would lean towards 73 Champ du Monde or a little
> later based mostly on the Mavic rims. The 72 catalog specs Super
> Champion and my 72 does have the SC rims. But who is to say the catalog
> specs were always followed to the letter. The 72 catalog also shows
> plain block letter and my 72 has the markings on white panels. Would
> you share your history with the bike? Looks near NOS.
>
> Lynn Travers
> Hazelwood, MO USA
>
>
> Jerry Tenenberg wrote:
>
>> Hi Lynn,
>> Here is where I posted the photos of the Lejeune:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/
>>
>> So far I have been told a 72 or 73, what say you?
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Jerry Tenenberg
>> Encinitas, Cal
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:11:16 +0000
> From: Ken <ken@kfhume.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: [CR] Spanish Spoke Lace
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <39947E62ACE8414A8130D37EA54EB682@laptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi,
>
> My winter bike wheels (Normandy hubs and Mavic MA2 rims) have just come back from the wheel shop after a respoke with Italian stainless spokes to try and solve a clicking spoke issue. I note that the wheel builder has employed a rather unusual technique to lace the spokes and he calls this Spanish lace.
>
> The Spanish lace appears to be a combination of radial spoke lacing and 2X spoke lacing (forward and reverse) on adjacent spokes with all the spoke heads being inserted from the inside face of the hub flange.
>
> A picture of this hub and spoke weave can be found at
>
> http://li6qpa.blu.livefilestore.com/
>
> I wonder why the wheel builder has chosen to employ this lace pattern other than as a cure for 3X lacing boredom ?
>
> Are any technical advantages or disadvantages known about this spoke lace pattern ?
>
> Regards
>
> Ken Hume
> London, England
> -------------- next part --------------
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2578 - Release Date: 12/20/09 19:35:00
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:22:35 -0500
> From: <oroboyz@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
> To: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <8CC50602CF258FC-1964-2B3E7@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> << ....So far I have been told a 72 or 73...>>
>
>
>
>
> That's about as close as anyone can guess with this bike in my opinion.
> Re the bike itself, it looks like another of those "Time Capsule" finds, it's in incredible original condition. Congrats!
>
> FWIW, it looks like the stem is raised too high for safety (and aesthetics) and that blue Campagnolo decal on the top tube is too new for that era. There are other Campy decals if you want one that are more appropriate....
>
>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> To: LTravers <lat7575@swbell.net>; Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:17 am
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
>
>
>
> Hi Lynn,
> Here is where I posted the photos of the Lejeune:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/
>
> So far I have been told a 72 or 73, what say you?
> Thank you.
>
> Jerry Tenenberg
> Encinitas, Cal
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:24:41 -0500
> From: <dtshifter@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Spanish Spoke Lace
> To: <ken@kfhume.freeserve.co.uk>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <8CC5060780B9E08-2B74-33DEC@webmail-d033.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> Ask the builder. In all my years of wheel building I have never found "exotic" spoking patterns to be of any 'real world' value other than aesthetics.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chuck Brooks
> Malta, NY NEUS
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken <ken@kfhume.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:11 am
> Subject: [CR] Spanish Spoke Lace
>
>
> Hi,
>
> My winter bike wheels (Normandy hubs and Mavic MA2 rims) have just come back
> from the wheel shop after a respoke with Italian stainless spokes to try and
> solve a clicking spoke issue. I note that the wheel builder has employed a
> rather unusual technique to lace the spokes and he calls this Spanish lace.
>
> The Spanish lace appears to be a combination of radial spoke lacing and 2X spoke
> lacing (forward and reverse) on adjacent spokes with all the spoke heads being
> inserted from the inside face of the hub flange.
>
> A picture of this hub and spoke weave can be found at
>
> http://li6qpa.blu.livefilestore.com/
>
> I wonder why the wheel builder has chosen to employ this lace pattern other than
> as a cure for 3X lacing boredom ?
>
> Are any technical advantages or disadvantages known about this spoke lace
> pattern ?
>
> Regards
>
> Ken Hume
> London, England
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2578 - Release Date: 12/20/09
> 19:35:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:41:59 -0600
> From: Patrick Doody <patrick.doody@gmail.com>
> Subject: [CR] Detour De France
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <76a52d9e0912210641o3c171890rf9f324390825d44f@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> I got this movie on Saturday and watched it. it was pretty entertaining.
> I'm offering it up for sale for the same price I paid for it, $18 shipped
> ConUS. Thanks! email me for my paypal address if you're interested.
>
> -Patrick Doody
> St. Paul, MN
>
> Happy Holidays!
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:46:43 -0800
> From: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
> To: <oroboyz@aol.com>, <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <11DACCF5FF55584E980EA4ADF66A8F82A0B786@SBS.herbtrade.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thank you Dale,
> Can you ID the decal and where I would find it? The bike rides well. It
> has a rare Oro SC chain that I don't see much of these days. A few touch
> ups here and there but pretty solid. Thanks again.
> Jerry tenenberg
> Encinitas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of
> oroboyz@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 6:23 AM
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
>
>
> << ....So far I have been told a 72 or 73...>>
>
>
>
>
> That's about as close as anyone can guess with this bike in my opinion.
> Re the bike itself, it looks like another of those "Time Capsule" finds,
> it's in incredible original condition. Congrats!
>
> FWIW, it looks like the stem is raised too high for safety (and
> aesthetics) and that blue Campagnolo decal on the top tube is too new
> for that era. There are other Campy decals if you want one that are more
> appropriate....
>
>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> To: LTravers <lat7575@swbell.net>; Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:17 am
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
>
>
>
> Hi Lynn,
> Here is where I posted the photos of the Lejeune:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/
>
> So far I have been told a 72 or 73, what say you?
> Thank you.
>
> Jerry Tenenberg
> Encinitas, Cal
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:00:02 -0500
> From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Spanish Spoke Lace
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <4B2F8D72.50404@oxford.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> Jobst Brandt shows this particular pattern in his book, "The Bicycle
> Wheel" and calls it "crow's-foot".
>
> "COMBINED SPOKING PATTERNS
> Wheels can be laced in patterns that combine radial and crossed spokes.
> These
> patterns are interesting in appearance but have no measurable advantages
> over
> standard crossed-spoke patterns. For example, the "crow's-foot" pattern has
> two-thirds crossed spokes and one-third radial. It is formed by a one-
> or two-crossed
> pattern with a radial spoke between each pair of opposing spokes. This
> pattern can be laced only on wheels with spokes in multiples of six (24,
> 36, 48)."
>
> I don't suppose you've yet ridden the wheels to see if the clicking is
> gone. Maybe the higher pressure where the 3 spokes cross close to the
> hub might eliminate it.
>
> John Betmanis
> Woodstock, Ontario
> Canada
>
> Ken wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My winter bike wheels (Normandy hubs and Mavic MA2 rims) have just come back from the wheel shop after a respoke with Italian stainless spokes to try and solve a clicking spoke issue. I note that the wheel builder has employed a rather unusual technique to lace the spokes and he calls this Spanish lace.
>>
>> The Spanish lace appears to be a combination of radial spoke lacing and 2X spoke lacing (forward and reverse) on adjacent spokes with all the spoke heads being inserted from the inside face of the hub flange.
>>
>> A picture of this hub and spoke weave can be found at
>>
>> http://li6qpa.blu.livefilestore.com/
>>
>> I wonder why the wheel builder has chosen to employ this lace pattern other than as a cure for 3X lacing boredom ?
>>
>> Are any technical advantages or disadvantages known about this spoke lace pattern ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Ken Hume
>> London, England
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:00:43 -0800
> From: Jerry Tenenberg <jtenenberg@hqorganics.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Lejeune
> To: LTravers <lat7575@swbell.net>
> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID:
> <11DACCF5FF55584E980EA4ADF66A8F82A0B787@SBS.herbtrade.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks Lynn,
> I do not have a long history with the bike. I got the bike as a fun
> project, but a size or so small for me. The wheels were on it and
> matched the condition overall, so seemed to be original to this bike. I
> could add more photos to present the touchups, and "patina" of the
> frame. It is a very cool ride, just too small for me.
> Jerry Tenenberg
> Encinitas, Cal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LTravers [mailto:lat7575@swbell.net]
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 5:38 AM
> To: Jerry Tenenberg
> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: Lejeune
>
> Wow. Very nice. I would lean towards 73 Champ du Monde or a little
> later based mostly on the Mavic rims. The 72 catalog specs Super
> Champion and my 72 does have the SC rims. But who is to say the catalog
> specs were always followed to the letter. The 72 catalog also shows
> plain block letter and my 72 has the markings on white panels. Would
> you share your history with the bike? Looks near NOS.
>
> Lynn Travers
> Hazelwood, MO USA
>
>
> Jerry Tenenberg wrote:
>
>> Hi Lynn,
>> Here is where I posted the photos of the Lejeune:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/
>>
>> So far I have been told a 72 or 73, what say you?
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Jerry Tenenberg
>> Encinitas, Cal
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:12:53 +0100
> From: M-gineering <info@m-gineering.nl>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Spanish Spoke Lace
> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <4B2F9075.50304@m-gineering.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> Ken wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My winter bike wheels (Normandy hubs and Mavic MA2 rims) have just come back from the wheel shop after a respoke with Italian stainless spokes to try and solve a clicking spoke issue. I note that the wheel builder has employed a rather unusual technique to lace the spokes and he calls this Spanish lace.
>>
>> The Spanish lace appears to be a combination of radial spoke lacing and 2X spoke lacing (forward and reverse) on adjacent spokes with all the spoke heads being inserted from the inside face of the hub flange.
>>
>> A picture of this hub and spoke weave can be found at
>>
>> http://li6qpa.blu.livefilestore.com/
>>
>> I wonder why the wheel builder has chosen to employ this lace pattern other than as a cure for 3X lacing boredom ?
>>
>> Are any technical advantages or disadvantages known about this spoke lace pattern ?
>>
>
> It is also called crowsfoot lacing. It is handy to lace a 32 H Rohloff
> hub to a 48h rim, but in normal circumstances it is not something you do
> without a specific customers request. It is certainly a strange way to
> cure a simple problem
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.115/2576 - Release Date: 12/19/09 19:40:00