Tange offered a tubing with 0.4mm butted section the Prestige SL set at the end of the 1980s and early Reynolds 753 was also this thin. Regards Hilary Stone
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>From: Marc Boral <mbikealive@earthlink.net>
>Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [Classicrendezvous] Mexico vs Super (was: Colnago quality)
>Date: Tue, Oct 17, 2000, 1:57 am
>
> Hi Richard and CR,
>
> Please don't get me wrong. I too agree that no manufacturer, including
> Colnago, could claim to use any tube with a thickness of 0.4 mm. Which is
> another reason I still think the "4/10" refers to the # of Record tubes
> within the Record/SL tubeset used on the Mexico. I think if they wanted to
> refer to the Record wall thickness, they would have expressed it in decimal
> form (0.5) like the rest of the Italian bike industry did. If they had
> written "5/10" instead of "4/10", I might be slightly more inclined to agree
> with you. But since there was never any 0.4 tube in the Columbus
> production, I believe the "4" refers to the number of Record tubes. I
> believe the backslash was not meant to infer a fraction, and the "10" does
> not mean tenths.
>
> While I tend to believe you about them not even using Record tubing at all,
> I do find it hard to believe that Colnago could claim for 10 years to use
> Record tubes in number of their frames, and not come under attack from their
> colleagues, their trade, and their distributors, for false advertising.
> Certainly other prominent Italian framebuilders would know this and expose
> them.
>
> I also found documentation regarding the NUOVO Mexico's tubeset. It states
> that Record tubes are used in all the stays and the top tube. The
> remainder were SL. Now this constitutes 5 record tubes out of 10. However
> these specs are for the Nuovo, not original Mexico which I allude to .
>
> I am aware you know way more than me about all aspects of frame
> construction. I do value your opinion. However, I am still not convinced
> you are correct regarding the Colnago Mexico tubeset. I mean no offense, I
> hope you don't take any.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Marc Boral
>
>
> "Richard M. Sachs" wrote:
>
>> marc...
>> here's my explanation: without question, the 4/10 thing
>> refers to wall thickness. just as my example of a butted
>> SL tube could be stated: 9/10x6/10x9/10, (.09x.06x.09), OR
>> a butted SP tube could be: 1.0x.07x1.0. to me, there is no
>> dispute regarding what the aforementioned '4/10ths'
>> means. what i do not agree with, having explained the
>> above, is that colnago (or anyone then), was using any
>> tubes, anyplace, that were .04mm in thickness, either as
>> straight guage tubes, or as the center guage in butted
>> tubes. in other words, those mexico specs say 4/10 record
>> tubes (by the way, i have those catalogs here, too), but
>> neither are they that guage, nor that tubing.
>> i will agree that when the mexico model itself begat??
>> it's updates, it resembled it's predecessors less and less.
>> i may appear cynical about this, but i'm not. i recall
>> that all these changes occurred during the 70's at the
>> height of the bike boom, when colnago was beginning
>> the ramp up from frame shop to major bicycle industry
>> player. few of his peers, then, notched it up at his rate
>> of speed. i believe it all came down to presentation;
>> prior to all this, all colnago had was the one model,
>> the super. by the late 70's he (they) added the international,
>> the mexico, the export, the mexico, the mexico oro,
>> the neuvo mexico, frames with saronni decals, frames
>> with de vlaeminck, those atrocious colners with the
>> spade, rather than the club, logo..
>> my point is that the mexico model initially was
>> a gussied up, updated version of the super, a model
>> which had run its course, marketing-wise. eventually,
>> the features i site in my last post...tube shapes, plating,
>> graphics, etc., would more easily distinguish mexicos
>> from supers. but this tie-in with the record tubing or the
>> 4/10ths thing just doesn't cut it with me. i don't care
>> what the catalogs say...all the descriptions say, 'specially
>> hand made and refined finish...' too! and i didn't
>> take that passage literally either.
>> get ernie on the phone, that's the only way to get
>> to 3rd base here...kinda' reminds me of woody allen
>> in 'annie hall', when he mysteriously pulls marshall
>> macluhan out of the wings to address some so-called
>> expert on marshall macluhan who was popping off
>> about the man while all involved in the scene were
>> waiting for movie tickets. have i lost everyone here?
>> e-RICHIE
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:56:12 -0700 Marc Boral <mbikealive@earthlink.net>
>> writes:
>> >Chuck and Richard seem to be of the opinion that "4/10 Record" refers
>> >to the
>> >guage/thickness. However I do not see the logic. Record tubes are
>> >0.5 mm. for
>> >triangle tubes and all stays, and 0.8 for the head tube. How do you
>> >derive at the "4"
>> >in "4/10" pertaining to thickness? I was also told by Colnago that
>> >Record tubing was
>> >specked in only certain tubes on the frame, not throughout. So this
>> >is why I believe
>> >that "4/10" refers to how many Record tubes were used. Please submit
>> >your input,
>> >because I certainly do not want to share incorrect info.
>> >
>> >Marc Boral
>> >
>> >Chuck Schmidt wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Marc,
>> >>
>> >> "4/10 Record" refers to the thickness of the tubing, not the number
>> >of
>> >> tubes in the frame...
>> >>
>> >> Chuck Schmidt
>> >> South Pasadena, California
>> >> http://www.velo-retro.com (list of t-shirts on site)
>> >>
>> >> Marc Boral wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Dale and CR,
>> >> >
>> >> > Most of my knowledge about earlier Colnagos comes from older
>> >Colnago literature,
>> >> > but some comes from having 25-30 Colnagos in my collection :-).
>> >So assuming the
>> >> > literature is correct, here is little info about Mexico vs.
>> >Super.
>> >> >
>> >> > Mexico framesets first appeared in '75/'76. They were constructed
>> >of Columbus
>> >> > Record & SL tubing. My early catalog refers to "4/10 Record".
>> >This refers to
>> >> > the 10 tubes used to make a frameset, not including the steerer.
>> >I assume it
>> >> > means that four tubes are Record, and the rest are SL. The
>> >problem is that the
>> >> > catalog doesn't refer to which tubes are the Record tubes.
>> >(snip)