Re: [CR]Re:Track bikes-fractured dropouts-fractured frames

(Example: Humor)

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:22:24 -0800
From: "Brian Baylis" <rocklube@adnc.com>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Re:Track bikes-fractured dropouts-fractured frames
References: <LPBBKCBEHBMDAJGDIPINEEPACMAA.mpetry@bainbridgeisland.net>


Mark,

I think that framebuilders who attend to this detail do so on purpose, sometimes maybe not even knowing why. Part of the charm of vintage and handbuilt frames is that every builder has or creates a "style" of doing the attachment and finish work on the tube ends at the dropout. I think only framebuilders truely appreciate the differences related to soundness and style of each design, level of difficulty of each method, and level of exicution of any given style. To answer Dave Feldmens' question regarding "domed and slotted" tube ends contributing to dropout breakage, I don't think that is a factor to any great degree. That is a sound joint design if brazed properly (which is quite easy) and millions of frames have been built that way with I'm sure no more that average breakage rate.

My main point here is that there are a large varity of dropout treatments, some perhaps better than others in some cases, but they are largely a matter of either style or convience. Domed and slotted is good for production since no filing is neccessary to finish it. The "Italian" style like was used at Masi is still my favorite style when exicuted expertly (it's easy to do a hack job on a dropout once a file is needed to finish the look and define the details of that area), but requires both work and skill to accomplish. I could easily write a chapter in a book about all of the ins and out and variations of dropout finishing and styles.

I have been delinquent keeping up with the list lately and there are a few topics I want to comment on. I don't have time to do it now but will attempt later today. This dropout "details" issue fits into what will be collectable in the next 50 years topic from last week.

Brian(I know, more boring framebuilder stuff)Baylis
>
> Just did the "finger test" on some of the bikes in my collection to confirm.
> The Wizard, Cinelli, and Singer all have smooth, square edges on the inside
> of the dropout. The Hetchins and Pogi both have flashing left over from the
> forging process.
>
> Coincidence or evidence of meticulous workmanship?
>
> ================================================
> Mark Petry 206.618.9642
> Beautiful Bainbridge Island, WA
> ================================================
> mailto:mpetry@bainbridgeisland.net
> ================================================
> The difference between genius and stupidity
> is that genius has limits.
>
> Albert Einstein, 1948
>
> ================================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org]On Behalf Of Brian Baylis
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:48 AM
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re:Track bikes-fractured dropouts-fractured frames
>
> Richard,
>
> Way back when all there was were Campagnolo dropouts, we were taught at
> Masi Carlsbad to file the inside of the triangle hole in the dropouts;
> making sure to get into the corners and square everthing up and remove
> the sometimes present small imperfections caused by the forging process.
> NO one ever told us why this was part of the proceedure, but years later
> I realized it is cheap insurance to help prevent dropout breakage. I
> have to assume there is some benifit to that little detail; because over
> 25 years of building frames, I've never had to replace a broken dropout
> on one of my frames, except in two cases of dropouts involved in
> crashes. There is no doubt that riding on a broken axel is the primary
> cause of broken dropouts, but there's no substitute for cheap insurance.
> I don't think this information will benifit too many framebuilders
> today, since most builders use cast plug-on dropouts these days.
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
> >
> > the campagnolo dropouts will break due the following
> > explanation, owing to the fact that the wheels are
> > riding on bent or broken axles. it is the axle problem
> > which causes the dropout problem. it is not caused
> > simply by using a spacer or spacers, or freewheels.
> > keep up on your axle maintenance and the dropout
> > will not break.
> > e-RICHIE
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:43:03 -0500 tomwitkop@juno.com writes:
> > >
> > > Further divergence but perhaps helpful. I was recently at John
> > > Hollands'
> > > His theory is that the normal
> > > freewheel style set up allowed for an extended spacer or spacers
> > between
> > > the right side lock nut end of the bearing. This extended axle would
> > > continually flex while riding constantly massaging the dropout and
> > > eventually and apparently, inexorably, leading to failure. The
> > > theory seems reasonable to me.