No doubt many custom builders have produced over 1,000 frames, but I think we compare apples to apples more accurately if we exclude customized frames from the total. I mentioned the Eisentraut Limited and the Fuso because those were "off the shelf" frames and therefore in the same game as Trek. Now how many of the builders you mention are playing? If Jim Redcay has produced 1,000 frames on spec without a customer in sight, then he's a "manufacturer", and is probably the King of the US frame "manufacturers" as far as who had the best product. Of course at this quality level, we can easily start dividing into Winesaps, Macintoshes and Deliciousi, but I'm focusing on "production" frames in the sense of stock/non custom, and who acheived the best quality.
Thanks also for the excellent commentary from the list.
KCTOMMY
> Hmmmm. If 1k is the breakpoint for "production", how many frames do you
think
> Drysdale, Redcay, or our own R. Sachs have built over the years?
>
> (I know one of the answers, but I'm not tellin' right now)
>
> Chris Beyer
> Bloomfield, NJ
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> KCTOMMY wrote:
>
> > Well, that raises the question of where Trek fits in the grand scale of
> > things. The "good" Treks I've seen seemed to be brazed well and ride
well.
> > The paint quality was decent but not great. The lug filing was very
good.
> > I am aware of a friend who had a seatstay cap come loose, but it was
fixed
> > under warranty. Cosmetically, the old style frames with the block type
> > decals were very attractive to me. To quote Sheldon Brown/Mike Kone,
> > "(o)riginal Columbus or 531 tubed N.R. bikes were really quite nice.
> > Historians will probably treasure these bikes in years to come - or
maybe
> > not. Right now they are probably worth around $650 in guideline
condition.
> > Reality is that these silver brazed machines could embarrass a lot of
> > Italian iron of the time." Certainly I've had no complaints about my
720
> > except that it had the less attractive "new style" graphics and paint.
The
> > paint seems reasonably durable.
> >
> > Are Mark's quality issues isolated and not the general experience? Or
do
> > list members have lots of Trek failure tales?
> >
> > Assuming the Trek quality was good, I would ask for opinions on whether
> > Trek's were the best American production (non-custom) lugged frames
made.
> > Chicago Schwinn Paramounts and modern Waterfords would be the only thing
I
> > would list as competitors. (Did I miss any?) I am limiting the class
to
> > production of over 1,000 frames, which would exclude Eisentraut Limiteds
or
> > Moulton Fusos. Excellent frames, but not a frame "manufacturer". And
if
> > Trek is one of the best in the US, where do they fit in the World?
Ahead of
> > Colnago? I think so. Raleigh? Based on my Pro and International,
Treks
> > were better built. Ahead of old Cinelli? No way!. Ahead of Bob
Jackson?
> > Well---
> >
> > Any comments out there?
> >
> > PS: If anyone can come up with a key to Trek serial numbers, I'd
certainly
> > pay a few bucks for one.
> >
> > Tom Adams in Chilly Kansas City
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark A. Perkins <bicyclemark@juno.com>
> > To: <WBINGHAM@imf.org>
> > Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 10:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Trek serial numbers
> >
> > > I remember seeing a few of the first Trek road bikes come into the
shop
> > > around 1980 I think. They left me with a bad impression, which hasn't
> > > gone away much since then. They had paint that was peeling off, and
you
> > > could see that there was no primer underneath. One (or was it two?)
in
> > > particular had a bad crack through the seat lug, and their owners were
> > > having trouble getting Trek to fix it. There was nothing about these
> > > bikes for me to be impressed with. In fact, I think I would rather
have
> > > a Viscount with the aluminum fork, even today. My impression back
then
> > > was that Trek was following a long standing BMA-6 tradition of cutting
> > > back on quality in favor of lower prices. Sure they were lugged
frames,
> > > and made from quality materials, and they had decent components, but
> > > quality materials, by themselves, don't make quality bikes. It takes
> > > skilled workers, and from what I saw, Trek didn't have any of those.
If
> > > my words seem too harsh, I'm sorry, but that's what I saw. I will say
> > > that Trek seems to have improved over the years, but I still don't
want
> > > one yet.
> > >
> > > "Bicycle Mark" Perkins
> > > Visalia, CA
> > >
> > > On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:56:15 -0500 "Bingham, Wayne" <WBINGHAM@imf.org>
> > > writes:
> > > > Jeff -
> > > >
> > > > Please keep us (I know there are several Trek fans lurking here
besides
> > > me)
> > > > informed on any serial number, dating or model information you're
able
> > > to
> > > > come up with. I tried, unsuccessfully, to get anything out of Trek.
> > > They
> > > > only seemed interested in being recognized for their industry
"firsts"
> > > that
> > > > had everything to do with aluminum and carbon frame construction and
> > > nothing
> > > > to do with their lugged steel frame origins. As the owner of an
'81,
> > > two
> > > > '84s and an '85, I'd really like to gather as much information as I
can
> > > on
> > > > the early frames. What is the "Trek historical book" anyway, and if
> > > it's
> > > > historical, why does it only go back to the early '90s when Trek was
> > > > building frames for 15 years prior to that? Anybody know what year
was
> > > the
> > > > first for Trek? '76/'77?
> > > >
> > > > Wayne Bingham
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jeff Archer [mailto:firstflight@abts.net]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 9:36 PM
> > > > To: Classic Rendezvous
> > > > Subject: Re: [CR]Trek serial numbers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have been talking to the guy who put together the Trek historical
> > > book.
> > > > The book only goes back to the early 1990's but has complete info
down
> > > to
> > > > spoke lengths, bb lengths..... He is supposed to be trying to round
up
> > > some
> > > > catalog copies for me. I have emailed him and asked him about the
> > > serial
> > > > number system. If I hear anything positive from him, I will let you
> > > know.
> > > > Jeff Archer
> > > > First Flight Bicycles
> > > > 216 S. Center St.
> > > > Statesville, NC 28677
> > > > 704.878.9683
> > > > firstflight@abts.net
> > > > http://www.firstflightbikes.com
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "KCTOMMY" <KCTOMMY@email.msn.com>
> > > > To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 7:41 PM
> > > > Subject: [CR]Trek serial numbers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This may have been asked before, but does anyone know how to date
> > > Treks
> > > > >from their serial numbers? Is it possible to deduce any further
info
> > > such as
> > > > >model or style from the numbers? Anyone have a contact at Trek
that
> > > could
> > > > >elucidate the Trek system?
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom Adams, waiting for snow in Kansas City
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
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