Re: lug finishing nuances (was [CR]Number 2?)

(Example: Bike Shops:R.E.W. Reynolds)

From: "KCTOMMY" <KCTOMMY@email.msn.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: lug finishing nuances (was [CR]Number 2?)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:58:01 -0600

This is by no means a new topic.

Some quotations on lug filing from "The Custom Bicycle" (1979).

(Harry Quinn Cycles) At Harry Quinn, they spend a lot of time just cleaning up the lugs, for instance. According to Harry, "You needn't do it, but its a sign of workmanship".

(Mercian) Like the vast majority of the famous frame builders, they do not believe that the lugs should be filed too thinly. Although this style has recently gained popularity in the United States, most builders agree with Derek Land when he says "It sems pointless to put a lug on, which is the thing that holds it all together, and then file it away!".

(Bob Jackson) Don't expect your Bob Jackson to have thinly filed lugs as Bob feels when the lugs are filed down too thin "they're simply taking away the whole strength of the frame". For him, a lug must only be filed until it is uniformly thick and clean all over.

(TI Raleigh) Lugs must be tapered and not thinned all over. According to O'Donovan, if you file a lug to death and the mitering is off slightly, "you've got a mush frame."

(Guerciotti) In order to expedite the frame building operation, all lugs and dropouts are unifromly filed and cleaned before they are sent to their frame builders.

-----Original Message----- From: Brian Baylis <rocklube@adnc.com> To: Charles Andrews <chasa@classicalradio.org> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 1:28 AM Subject: Re: lug finishing nuances (was [CR]Number 2?)


>Charles,
>
>The "Eisentraut" school of lug finishing is not my favorite both
>visually and from a structural standpoint, even though I've never seen
>one brake. Frequently I see frames filed that thin which show exposed
>brazing material which means the lug has been filed completely through
>and now you're looking at the braze material. Technically it is sound,
>but I don't like the concept of filing completely through the lug.
>Furthermore, I often see a lug edge that is made only of braze material.
>If a tube replacement becomes neccessary, it is very difficult if not
>impossible in some cases to return to the original lug profile because
>the lug that was there when the bike was originally brazed is now gone.
>The builder is not considering what possibilities might come up in the
>future of the frame.
>
>Slightly thicker lugs are my preference. The difference between one
>builder and the next at that point is how they are contoured. Mario
>liked to accentuate the intersection of the tubes by filing a "sharp"
>crotch, especially on the sear lug. That is one of the key identifying
>traits of a Mario built Masi, and one that he carried over to his own
>frames. I was taught (and in this case not by Mario but by Ron Smith) to
>make the crotch of the lug a continuous gentle curve from one edge to
>the other, which I will demonstrate in the seminar. I find it
>considerably more pleasing to my eye and also a much better use of the
>"stress distribution collar" (lug) than the opposite. That would be an
>example of style and aesthetics performing a structural function as
>well, as I mentioned in an earlier post. To many these points may seem
>insignificant, but at a certain point one has to nitpick to make a
>distinction between one builder and the next. If a file never touches a
>frame then it is a non-issue. But if the builder is going to put a file
>to the lugs then he/she must make a choice as to how to go about it.
>Like they say, life is in the details.
>
>Just for general information. An investment cast lug can actually cause
>a stress riser on the underside of the down tube and for all intents and
>purposes act like a can opener. I have seen early Waterford Paramounts
>with this problem and Medicis with this problem. The bottom point of the
>bottom head lug was causing down tube breakage on account of the sharp
>point that was over 1 mm in thickness and cast of very hard material.
>Both lugs were cast in the US (Henry James and the Confente lugs being
>used by Medici) and being used by outfits that weren't thinning them
>properly and putting a radius on the bottom points of all lugs. They
>both figured it out after some problems. Ironically, I did build one
>frame for myself using the Medici lugs while I was working with Mike and
>Gian in LA. I reshaped the lugs and Gian got pissed and wouldn't let me
>decal the frame as a Medici. Fine with me. Somewhere out there is a
>frame about 50cm or 51cm that is built with "Confente" lugs that have
>the heart, spade, club, diamond lug cutouts in them that used to be my
>frame. If anyone runs into it, let me know. It's probably still in So.
>Cal. somewhere.
>
>Brian Baylis
>I wish I had all the frames I've ever made for myself. That would be
>around 30, maybe more.
>>
>> This brings up an interesting point. As we were all standing around before
>> the San Diego Vintage ride this weekend, Peter Johnson was showing off his
>> latest frame, not yet in paint. It was very lovely, with highly finished
>> and thinned lugs practically blending right into the frame.
>>
>> There seems to be at least two schools of thought on this. Phil Brown was
>> admiring the frame, as I recall, and mentioned that he liked more of a
>> lug-line on the frames he builds. Someone else (I forget who), noted that
>> Eisentraut was famous for his blended lugs, a look I always kinda liked
>> actually, but which seems--if not anathema--at least, not desirable, among
>> certain builders. I know Chris Kvale does this very nicely--his lugged
>> frames remind me of the old 70s Eisentraut custom frames.
>>
>> On the other hand, Mario Confente seems to have walked a line right down the
>> middle, with lugs that were thinned and nicely finished, but had a lot more
>> profile than, say, an Eisentraut of the same period.
>>
>> Seems like that blended-lug look is purely a custom feature: nobody has
>> time to do that in a production setting, although, that said, two early
>> Colnagos I'm lucky enough to have both have heavily thinned and blended
>> lugs, a look that slowly disappeared from Ernesto's production frames as
>> time, and volume, marched on.
>>
>> Then there was Pogliaghi, who appears to have barely touched a file to his
>> lugs (they were all stamped and formed lugs, so probably not much filing
>> was really needed, except to get rid of the brazing line down the middle..)
>> and it's a look I like, at least on a Pogi: sorta macho, ya know? Somehow
>> appropriate from a builder of big-time track frames.
>>
>> I must confess to being slightly taken aback when I got my Rivendell and saw
>> how much profile the lugs have. Beautifully finished off, but hardly
>> thinned at all. Must be Grant's idea of a correct look. I guess I'll
>> always associate thinned and blended lugs with the highest quality...
>>
>> Charles Andrews
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Jerry & Liz Moos [mailto:moos@penn.com]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 6:02 PM
>> > To: Steven L. Sheffield
>> > Cc: Classic Rendezvous
>> > Subject: Re: [CR]Number 2?
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, Mario may have been worshiped in California, but in my
>> > part of the US in
>> > the 70's (Ohio in the early 70's, Arkansas in the late 70's)
>> > I would say Albert
>> > Eisentraut was much better known. In fact, I'd say
>> > Eisentraut was probably the
>> > first US framebuilder since WWII to become well known among US biking
>> > enthusiasts generally, as opposed to among fellow
>> > framebuilders. That isn't to
>> > say he was necessarily better than Mario, but he certainly
>> > was/is no slouch.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Jerry Moos
>> >
>> > Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>> >
>> > > So ... if we are all agreed that Mario Confente was the
>> > best builder in the
>> > > United States in the 1970s ...
>> > >
>> > > Who is number 2, and for whom does he work?
>> > >
>> > > Or are we even agreed that Mario is number 1?
>> > >
>> > > If you could have a bike built by each of the top three
>> > builders, who would
>> > > they be? In order?
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >
>> > > Steven L. Sheffield
>> > > stevens at veloworks dot com
>> > > veloworks at earthlink dot net
>> > > aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash
>> > double-you
>> > > double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash