Gilbert,
Very well expressed. Vintage bikes in general are a bargain; but few can compare to a Rene Herse of any complexity for price verses cost. I can say without reservation that if I were to undertake a "reproduction" of a Herse demountable for example; to do it one-off for the first time would cost around $25,000 if I was to work as I normally do. The time it would take to study the design details alone to accurately reproduce the frame would take forever. There are probably some special fixtures and tools required to accomplish some of the operations that are unique to a demountable. I know one thing for sure; after all was said and done the end result may look and ride exactly like a Rene Herse, but it would never BE a Rene Herse. The resulting bike might be the only Baylis demountable ever built, but the charm of a vintage Rene Herse could not be built into it. The number of them is finite. Just like a Confente which I could very easily "recreate" in comparison, adding one to the pool of existing frames would accomplish nothing in terms of adding a real one to the numbers that exist. These bikes must be appreciated for what they are; and the fortunate few who own them are to be envied by those who don't, IMO.
Having just read the post from Douglas Brooks, I would be curious to know what he is refering to and what happened, just for general knowledge.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
Have a Rene Herse (georgeous ladies bike), would like to have another
example or two to study and appreciate privately. Would also take any
similar "not as well known" French contraption, but prefer not a
demountable.
>
> Hi gang, Gilbert Here.
>
> I AM NOT TRYING TO RUN UP THE PRICE OF RENE HERSE'S!
>
> I'd like to buy another and they are unaffordable for me at the moment. My
> own mount was purchased new with freight without wheels for about $4400.00 US
> dollars in 1983. I then had Mike Barry at then Bicycle Sport (now he commands
> Bicycle Specialties in Toronto) put some finishing touches on it for several
> hundred more dollars (a bargain as he and I probably remember). The dollar
> that year was strong and what would it have cost in today's currency, from
> the original builder. At the time I was not rich but had never owned a car.
> I felt like the bike was a crazy bargain at the time too. Herse's were
> regarded as expensive in France (by guys riding $300.00 Peugeots I might ad)
> but to an American with greenbacks.....and no car, wife, or kids, well.......
>
> On the $4000.00 demontable Herse that sold, I can only compare it to my own
> which has many similarities but which is a good bit more elaborate. On
> comparative value I did not purchase the bike (bought new) as a keep sake, an
> investment, or as a show piece. I wanted a rider to do a job. It did well
> for many thousands of miles. Today as I am on the dark side of 40 years I
> would still like to buy it pretty much the same way but maybe for the above
> reasons.
>
> On my own similar bike I can tell you that no commercial concern, individual
> or skilled hobbyist could reconstruct and equip my Herse demontable for even
> $8000.00 working for minimum wage! Two or three ordinary vintage style frames
> could be constructed in less time than the four (thats' right 4) luggage
> racks (Low front and rear racks count as one each). The racks may have been
> the most simple part to have reconstructed as well.
>
> Copying an existing design is sometimes much cheaper and easier than
> creating, testing and refining a new design but even a copy can have many
> flaws which the only the original builder could pick out easily on passing.
>
> Any apparent similarity or association with a Bruce Gordon, Bike Friday, SS
> Coupled frame, any Vintage lightweight to my particular Herse can only be
> made (sorry Brandon, if you make the cirque great, if not I guess I'll have
> to demo the damn bike all afternoon now) by someone who has one; not seen it
> up close and two; not taken every part off the frame and from inside the
> racks, frame and brazed on accessories!
>
> I'm not trying to toot Herse's or my horn as many other French bikes I have
> seen have very elaborate construction. Few are as well known as Herse in the
> US. I got the feeling when visiting France that Herse had many, many peers in
> Europe. Perhaps the reputation is over done here but few other bikes have
> the innovations I will describe.
>
> I'll continue rant on my particular Herse as I can speak from conviction.
> First things First:
> Ride quality. Herse is famous for all types of bikes but Touring was his best
> known specialty. The balance, geometry, rider weight distribution all must
> fit and be correct for the ridder. A racing bike while easy to screw up is
> much simpler as it is minimalist and has less variability's in it's design or
> use.
>
> My bike is often called a Demontable"takeapart". While this is a part of it's
> design it is much more. It is a Camping (with low and high front and rear
> racks), Randonneus (Light and fast 531C tubing and dual lighting built in
> front and rear for all night and day club rides in any weather), and
> Demontable Takeapart for transport in car or public conveyance. It, unlike
> many bikes does everything intended very well indeed with no apparent short
> comings.
>
> The ride is exquisite, stiff enough in the BB to race (I considered that),
> very comfortable on long rides, and the most stable bike I have ever ridden
> with camping gear. It can be ridden no hands with 75 lbs of baggage. Only one
> other bike comes close and I'm keeping my mouth shut about that or risk
> offending sensibilities more than I am now. The ride of this bike (and may
> other brands I might add but not very many) is magical! Few touring bikes
> traveling loaded can be complimented and few people test them critically! The
> ride is the reason to own this bike but not every Rene Herse rides like this,
> I am sure.
>
> Comparisons to Similar Bikes
> 1) On Bruce Gordon wiring in the frame with custom painted racks and Rene
> Custom touches. No slight to Bruce Gordon as he makes a fine product but....
> While his workmanship and construction may be top notch (or sometimes
> superior) I have seen up close many Gordon's and the related racks and there
> is no comparison (and no space or time to note all the shortcomings here). On
> the Gordon racks, there are ugly and industrial (Mike Barry makes nice
> looking racks) and they are painted. First time a pannier goes on the side
> rail of his rack the paint can peel off. Chrome is the Herse Choice and it
> lasts. I've seen poorly tended Herse bikes 40 years old with faultless
> chrome! The Gordon racks are fixed design, no modularity and carry weight far
> too high for real stability. A Gordon with my Herse racks might ride great
> but I doubt they would compare. The wiring of a generator light, is not
> simply through the frame, on the Herse as original it is invisible, no holes
> no wires. There are elaborate moving fitting in the frame to accomplish this
> I have seen on no other builder, and never have seen on a Bruce Gordon. At
> Gordon's prices for his racks I feel he wouldn't have it in the ball park of
> similarities for 10 grand if he valued his time though his skills may be up
> to the task.
>
> 2) Bike Friday- Now come on. If only the Herse rode as well as their best!
> Now I don't want to slam Bike Friday (I'd like to own one) but the ride
> quality just can not compare. I am a fan of small wheel bikes but the
> Fridays' has a lack of stiffness laterally. A fine rider but not for loaded,
> pounding, touring. Where do you carry your kit, that tiny trailer or the
> tiny rack(which makes it ride worse) This is not fair.
> I feel Brandon mentioned it for compatibility compared to the demontable
> feature. The Air Llama was recently reviewed in Adventure Cyclist Magazine.
> It takes about 30 minutes to knock down (and I think an hour to set up at
> destination?). My Herse Demontable has 11 Quick release fittings and
> separates in about 10 seconds or less with practice. It can be further
> collapsed with little effort. I like the Bike Friday but it can't compare for
> loaded touring at all.
>
> 3) S & S Couplers- Very fine stainless steel device that is really a great
> idea new or retrofit. They are expensive to fit but who cares about cost. But
> they are ugly (unless Dave at Bohemian carves em up then they are dandy) and
> very slow and require a special tool. They work well but no one would want
> them over a demontable if given the choice.
>
> 4) On Vintage bikes being a great value or great deal(see below) they are.
> Noting in the world today can give you more, exercise, peace or fun that a
> modern or vintage lightweight. On the best deal thing (anyone know who got
> it) the $4000 Herse from where I sit might be the best one of all. With all
> this hype(after the fact) why didn't it sell for more. Well bikes certainly
> don't have the broad collector's demand like some items but I think it might
> have been the time of year. Last summer with people less apprehensive about
> the economy and stocks flying high and a Japan Inc. with less worries this
> bike might have gone for very much higher but with financial nervousness in
> so many corners of the world the money might have been reallocated. The
> lucky winner (E-bay ) may have gotten the best deal of all. I hope he is
> happy with his purchase.
>
> 5) On the classic rep of the builder raising the price, there is no question
> that many times a Hetchins, Herse, Singer or well worn Raleigh or Schwinn
> will bring a top dollar on reputation alone. These bikes are all fine in
> their own unique was but comparison are a bit awkward. On these and the Herse
> think about how the reputation got there and you will start to understand
> what makes something valuable.
>
> 6) Brandon, I know not of your skills and I did not get a very close for an
> inspection of the $4000.00 Herse on Ebay. But if what I saw is what I think
> it is and you can reproduce it precisely without compromise (not My bike ,
> the Ebay one) for only $4000.00 you have a job for life. I have an order pad
> and can fill it with orders that you will not live long enough to fulfill. My
> bike has lots of other stuff not mentioned and we can pay $8000 for those.
> The buyers exist but the products do not.
>
> Cheers all,
> Thanks for enduring me
>
> Gilbert" There are lots of great bikes but few like me Herse" Anderson
>
> "No Brag, Just Fact" Will Sonnett
>
> I should have mentioned Mike Barry of
> In a message dated 3/15/01 1:08:19 AM, bikevint@tiac.net writes:
>
> << Yikes.........with all due respect......I could blow a gasket....but I'll
> cool down........In my opionion there is simply no comparison between what
> goes into an Herse demontable and any of the bikes you mention. To make
> such a machine I'd bet you'd be visiting 7-8 k for any domestic maker to do
> it - the racks alone would be many hundreds each if made the way Herse made
> them.....best comparison is the Japanese makers who do clone Herse bikes.
> Maybe someone in the US would make a one-off copy as a labor of love, but
> it just can't occur on a regular basis. A modern top tier SS coupler frame
> alone usually is close to 2K and those are a walk in the park compared to
> building a demontable. Mike Kone
>
> At 04:23 PM 3/14/01 -0700, Monkeyman wrote:
> >>On the value of the Herse $4000 seems like a bargain if the repair work and
> >>other faults are as Mr Bayliss(sic) descibed. One value that a vintage bike
> >>must represent but is rarely mentioned is how much it would cost to
> produce a
> >>similar product with it's major features in today's world for comparison.
> >>Think of the time put into a fancy lugged Hetchins recently found at the
> >>fraud controle department?
> >>
> >>I don't mean the same just a similar crafted product.
> >. . . (SNIP). . .
> >>Could you frame building fellows construct one today ready to ride for
> >>$8000.00? Would it be much higher? No pressure just curious.
> >
> >
> >Just to start with on a modern basis you could get a Bruce Gordon custom
> >tourer with custom painted racks and all the internal wires all top end
> >parts, plus many of the nice touches Rene would have put on a bike for
> >about $4000. If someone wanted a "demountable" like the the Herse I'd call
> >Hanz at Bike Friday and have him build me a one-off and I could get all the
> >little custom bits too for $4000. Hell, if someone gives me $4000 I'll
> >make them a "demountable" as nice as that one. The reason the Herse sold
> >for so much is it's a piece of history that has a history.
> >
> >I was thinking about the very subject of the value of "classic" bikes just
> >last weekend and think "classic" bikes are a real bargain. Maybe not the
> >Herse, since you're buying more than a bike there, but most classic road
> >bikes. You can find top end mint bikes regularly for under $1500. That
> >same $1500 will get you a nice mid-line steel bike today but the same
> >builders. Even taking inflation into consideration you're still getting a
> >better deal. If you look around a bit you can find a well ridden but till
> >very nice all top end bike for around $500, this is where the real deals
> >come in.
> >
> >To sum up, recreating something "classic" is easy, but giving it history is
> >hard. Classic bikes are a real deal when compared to similar products
> >today, though I do like the modern tubing much better than the old stuff.
> >
> >enjoy,
> >Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
> >
> >
> >Brandon and Mitzi's-- "Wurld uv Wunder"
> >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~capybara/
> >
> >Monkeyman's on going bicycle part garage sale <<<NEW LISTINGS>>>
> >http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~mkirklan/salepage/garage.html