Hi gang,
It was common in the early sixties thru the early seventies to see Hi Flange hubs with 4x built because the spokes form more tangent pattern. It seems most racing bikes used the this pattern in the 60's. For most wheels it created little problems then, same now but your results may very. There is less chance of spokes overlapping each other with low flange 4 x compared to high flange however. 5X wheels were common on older Santana Tandems with 48 spoke drilling and were extremely durable.
The move toward 3 cross in the early to mid seventies was I think a fashion motivated by the belief that this pattern was faster (It was considered weaker at the time by many people). It is certainly lighter as the spokes were shorter as well.
Also the shorter spoke was thought to transmit power to the rear wheel quicker. Hard to measure but it stands to reason. The fact is good strong wheels can be made with either pattern ( 3x or 4x ) and real life durability does not seem to major factor between the two patterns. The number of spokes, hub flange size and spoke overlap make the difference (if any) in durability.
On testing there has been some Euro Engineering Testing of some basic theorems below (called into question) with most of the so call subjective feel actually being verified! I wish I had the source handy to forward to the list. Perhaps someone has the information to help.
On a side note related somewhat to tying and soldering. Our esteemed countryman Jobst Brandt (who I often disagree with) actually did some research as I recall on Hub Flange size and found that Hi Flange wheels are stiffer than low flange but discounted his own measurments as not making any difference. In his tests the high flange hubs were twice as stiff as well! You got to hand it to a guy that goes to the trouble of trying to prove something with testing and then discards his results when they don't agree with his opinion.
The reason I mention the items above is in Jobst's tests he tested lateral stiffness with a 30Kg (64 lbs.) load and found no measurable difference in performance between high and low flange built wheels with and without tying the spokes( Soldering the wire was not mentioned) with fine steel wire. If we assume for postulation that the two wheels tested were tied and soldered (so the wire didn't move!) and had only a 30Kg lateral load ( anyone weigh 64lbs out there?) these seems like a very light duty and not particularly tough test.
With only 2 wheels of uncertain heritage and rims of unknown origin it is hard to draw conclusions. I suspect(probably not, but) the Weinnman Concave or Super Champ 58's on my tandem might flex less without spokes than a Super Champion Medal'd'Ore 260 gram sewup rim built up into a wheel.
In real life experience the feeling of stiffer is real, not imagined for many things. Lets face it early Cannondales were stiffer horizontally and vertically than Trek Steel bikes of the era. Time changes all things but these are facts that few would care to dispute (not here please). On the wheel thing, I venture few people have ridden tyed and soldered wheels on this list. The ones that have probably have not ridden tyed and soldered wheels and similar components non tyed and soldered wheels side by side in very aggressively, out of the saddle with extreme side to side movement ( as far as you can lean your bike as still go straight and then throughing it hard to the other side back and forth for power) the way some race situations would require.
Few riders I have seen today sprint in such an extreme way but I had to because I weighed only 135 lbs (in days of old) and the only way I could stand on the podium was to pull the bars hard and fast side to side opposing the pedals. If you really do this hard on most older (light weight and softer rims) wheels you will not only feel it but see the rim move (in the front)! This movement is greatly reduced with both high flange and or tying and soldering. I always suspected it but really noticed it practicing sprints at a velo drome with road bikes. The banking so enhanced the effect from my startup pedal strokes I had a hard time controlling the bike (I thought I had broken my frame or fork) until I changed to a high flange (and or tied and soldered wheel) wheel. The rear could be felt (not seen) flexing but had little effect on control. By the way I used to buckel rear wheels with high flange hubs starting sprints so I know lateral flex is a problem. I dare not try it now as I weigh over 15 stone (and average American for you import types on the list).
On the wheel rims for comparison, older rims were one, softer and generally lighter than today's hardened super(?) rims so the effect was very pronounced. As far as for practical day to day use tying and soldering is a lot of trouble for non competition and of only a small value for most people but for riders with as harsh or violent riding style it has some distinct advantages I feel. Looks cool on the correct bike. I used to paint the solder crosses my frame color or highlight color, very intimidating.
Now we did try some Double blind tests at the North Street Test Track and sadly all Blindfolded testers are thank fully recovering nicely from their injuries (both rear ended parked vehicles) at Rex Hospital. Get well cards can be sent to both Byron and Sean at the address below and will be forwarded.
PS. Sean and Bryon, thanks for the science. Officer Hinson still needs a statement from you two as to why this happened. The Breathalyzer measured you clean and sober.
Results may Vary,
Gilbert Anderson
The North Road Bicycle Company your bicycle outfitter 519 W. North St. Raleigh, NC 27603 USA ph toll free in USA :800/321-5511 Local ph: 919/828-8999 E-Mail: cyclestore@aol.com
In a message dated 3/24/01 6:54:11 AM, jschaer@columbus.rr.com writes:
<< ----- Original Message -----
From: KCTOMMY <KCTOMMY@email.msn.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [CR] mixing spoke crosses
> Back when I started riding, the cognoscenti told us neophytes that 4 cross
> wheels were for tourists, because they gave a softer ride due to increased
> flex in the longer spokes. Given what has been said on the effect of
cross
> patterns and tensions, was this an urban legend, or is there a difference?
>
Maybe not urban legend, but just a misunderstanding of how wheels work. With
the exception of a wheel laced so loosely that spokes go slack in the load
effected zone, lacing pattern and spoke type/gauge have no effect on how a
wheel rides. Rims do a little. Tires do a lot. Some contend that spoke
materials (such as SPOX vectran) have different harmonics and subtly effect
the ride, but I'm pretty sceptical that it's little more than marketing
hype.
On Tying and soldering
> Also, since so many say the 4 cross will result in the spoke crossing the
> head of adjoining spokes, how were 4 cross wheels ever built? Do you have
> to use certain hubs only?
>
Large flange hubs have the most problems. With small flange hubs, 36' 4x
wheels sqeak by with just a touch of head overlap. 40' and 48' hubs have to
be a larger flange because of the number of holes. 40' is usually ok with
4x. Some 48' are laced 5x, but that's just rediculous.
> And by the way, what effect did tieing and soldering the spoke crosses
have?
> Who should have it done?
>
You'll get people who swear tying and soldering makes their wheels feel
stiffer, but those coments are based on empirical data. No one has been able
to measure a difference in a controlled test environment. And I'm confident
no one who claims to be able to feel a difference could pass a double-blind
A-B test, which would eliminate preconceptions and chance. Tying and
soldering was done originally for especially abusive races, back when
available parts were of lower quality that what we have now. When spokes
would break, the tied junction would kep the loose spoke from floping all
over the place, lessening the chance of a racer needing to stop.
Jon Schaer >>