i used the word. so i'll take a crack at it... three things to say first, and i don't mean to be smug. 1) if you have to ask the question, you'd likely not get the answer. 2) sometimes the only answer to 'why', is 'because'. 3) i don't know how to describe it, but i know it when i see it. in response to doland's query re: the pinnacle of the vintage era, i tried to define its downslide by inferring that once the pre-finished frame parts came to be in full time use by full production factories to small framebuiders, bikes, as were previously, were no longer 'made', as much as they were 'assembled'. i would compare it to heathcliff make-your-own televsion kits, or slr cameras, or even player pianos! the investment cast parts/plug-in dropouts/one-piece brake bridge/bridgeless bb shell with CAST-IN cable guides...all these time items came into being, not to raise the quality level of the frame, but to reduce the man hours/labor needed to produce a decent frame. the quality level at frames shops had always been high. using the newer pieces added nothing. perhaps not even efficiency. on the other hand, as frame factories moved in to this era, it was possible to add the cache of custom framebuilding to what previoiusly were factory level frames. after a point in time, the details that helped to make up the hallmarks of fine framebuilding were now, essentially, for sale to anyone who cared to omit/bypass experience, training, intuition, etc., and make a lot of frames without the labor previously needed. i view it as a good thing, not otherwise. it allowed the bar to be raised for all involved. but it heralded out the time that my answer to doland was meant to address. period. when all needed to make a table is a tool and a piece of wood, both available from home depot, such a table would not likely be revered in 'fine woodworking' magazine, nor should it. the same holds true within the context of vintage/pinnacle/etc. as my reply to doland suggested: soul-less. e-RICHIE who's replying to: On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:57:18 EST M4Campy@aol.com writes: Hello all- Since several members have talked about the "soul" of bicycles being lost on the downside of the /pinnacle/ I guess it begs the question... What gives a bicycle soul?