Mark, thanks for the details. I'm always impressed when people inspect their frames in this much detail. It shows not only knowledge, but respect for the intricacies of individual workmanship that separates each and every frame. The excitement of staying up late at night to inspect a new toy, whether in the garage or the kitchen (garage in my case), is something that all of us can relate to, but is only a memory for me now as the new job and responsibilities are making my bike wheelin' and dealin' a thing of the past. I appreciate others on the list helping me live through their experiences. Thanks again. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL "Hoping a list member will by that Sutter frame on Ebay and share with us"