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CR
Today's Topics:
1. Re: value of a Masi Prestige? (DMart84815@aol.com) 2. RE: Masi vs Waterford (Rich Rose) 3. Brev. Camp, Patent Campagnolo or nothing??? (scott davis) 4. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Kevin.MacKinnon@kmz.com) 5. Brev Camp, (scott davis) 6. Brev Camp, (scott davis) 7. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Thomas Rawson) 8. Items for sale (walter skrzypek) 9. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Garrison Hilliard) 10. Fw: [CR]Masi vs Waterford (Thomas Rawson) 11. stuck handlebars (Roadgiant@cs.com) 12. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Thomas Rawson) 13. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Garrison Hilliard) 14. ebay (Richard M Sachs) 15. RE: Masi vs Waterford (Mark Petry) 16. Storing bikes in hot attic (Mark Plesko) 17. Re: Storing bikes in hot attic (LouDeeter@aol.com) 18. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Thomas Rawson) 19. Re: Masi vs Waterford (Diane Feldman) 20. Re: Masi vs Waterford (LouDeeter@aol.com) 21. Re: value of a Masi Prestige? (OROBOYZ@aol.com) 22. Re: Masi vs Waterford (OROBOYZ@aol.com) 23. Quality of bikes (was Masi vs Waterford) (OROBOYZ@aol.com) 24. (no subject) (Dennis Johnson) 25. Re: Quality of bikes (was Masi vs Waterford) (Thomas Rawson)
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Message: 1 From: DMart84815@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:18:37 EDT Subject: Re: [CR]value of a Masi Prestige? To: wyoung@stonehenge.ca Cc: ClassicRendezvous@bikelist.org
Hello Warren. I own a early 80s Masi Prestige (former Bob Freeman cycle). Personally, I wanted a "real* Italian Masi. The Prestige is quite elegant with a ornately engraved flat crown beautifully finished dropouts with chrome tips and restrained graphics. The seat lug has a paper thin gap though....bummer! But, hey I have seen a '68 Masi Special and 70s GC with a equally unforgiveable sins. The Prestige has "Masi" everything including-bars,stem,rims,post,shifters and a Ti Campag Groupo with freewheel to boot! Comparing the Prestige with a early 70s GC, the Prestige handles quicker than the old GC. You can hop on the GC and forget about it, with the Prestige you have to kinda plot your course. The Prestige is uncommon in the USA, the graphics and paint are nice and the handling is quicker than a GC, I would check out the quality of construction and determine a price from that stand point. Good Luck
Dave Martinez Fremont Ca
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Message: 2 Subject: RE: [CR]Masi vs Waterford Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:38:01 -0400 From: "Rich Rose" <rrose@normandassociates.com> To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net>, <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Are we talking current Masi, as in "Milano", or comparing a vintage Masi with a current Waterford? No matter. I think that Waterfords might be the nicest "production" frames that I have seen. Others more knowledgeable than I may disagree? Not an RS or a Weigle (Baylis, Bohemian etc...), perhaps, but really nice steel frames. Richard Rose (Toledo, Ohio)
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Rawson Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:33 PM To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
The old Product Manager in me is curious about something. Wonder if the list is curious as well.
Supposing you were going to buy a road bike today. Given our general preferences lets say it would be steel, lugged, one color.
Would you buy a Masi or a Waterford and why?
Tom Rawson Oakland, CA (formerly Brookline Village, MA and Guilford, CT)
_______________________________________________
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Message: 3 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Brev. Camp, Patent Campagnolo or nothing???
Sorry for the previous 2 misfired msgs. Anyway, does anyone know the deal on the Campy NR/SR brake center bolts? It seems like "Brev. Camp," was used in the early 70s. If there is nothing stamped on the centerbolts, does it mean they're a copy? Thanks Scott
__________________________________________________
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Message: 4 Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org, classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org From: Kevin.MacKinnon@kmz.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:53:10 -0500
I'd also be curious about the group's appraisal of Serotta's conspicuously lugged CSI.
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Message: 5 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:13:55 -0700 (PDT) From: scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Brev Camp,
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Message: 6 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:14:02 -0700 (PDT) From: scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Brev Camp,
__________________________________________________
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Message: 7 Reply-To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> From: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> To: "Rich Rose" <rrose@normandassociates.com> Cc: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:17:58 -0700
Rich,
Yah, sorry should have said 25 year old Masi. Hoping to hit two
examples of higher quality production frames. Trying not to lead
answers but looking for list of attributes that includes not only
the visible - physical stuff but price/value, "history".
Thanks
Tom
<Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:38 AM Subject: RE: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
Are we talking current Masi, as in "Milano", or comparing a vintage Masi with a current Waterford? No matter. I think that Waterfords might be the nicest "production" frames that I have seen. Others more knowledgeable than I may disagree? Not an RS or a Weigle (Baylis, Bohemian etc...), perhaps, but really nice steel frames. Richard Rose (Toledo, Ohio)
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Rawson Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:33 PM To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
The old Product Manager in me is curious about something. Wonder if the list is curious as well.
Supposing you were going to buy a road bike today. Given our general preferences lets say it would be steel, lugged, one color.
Would you buy a Masi or a Waterford and why?
Tom Rawson Oakland, CA (formerly Brookline Village, MA and Guilford, CT)
_______________________________________________
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Message: 8 From: "walter skrzypek" <wspokes1@hotmail.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:54:06 -0400 Subject: [CR]Items for sale
Items I have been hoarding for too long. For sale. most are new unless otherwise noted. Shipping is extra unless otherwise noted. ------------------------------------------ For Sale:
Bike Ribbon celeste Cork handlebar tape. New in package of course. $15 each
Bike Ribbon celeste (Bianchi) at $10 each. New, of course.
Also, now that I got my 175mm Zeus crank that I needed. I have for sale: Zeus crank 170mm. The right side has some scratches and scrapes...not new, but also not trashed. It's been used so just don't expect a pristine shiny crankset. The left side is NOS crankarm still in plastic wrap. The right side has a cool fluted crankarms. $40 plus shipping.
Black tressostar cloth tape: Probably Taken by Osburn before this hit the list.
Silca Impero Chrome pumps. I have two. they are New. They are the XL, supposed to fit 55-59cm (I believe.) $20 includes shipping.
email me offlist if interested in anything. More to come soon!
Whatever doesn't sell will be visiting ebay! Thanks. ------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------ Walt Skrzypek Falls Creek, PA
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
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Message: 9 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Garrison Hilliard <garrison@efn.org> To: Thomas Rawson <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Thomas Rawson wrote:
> Would you buy a Masi or a Waterford and why?
No, and because I don't have the dough to spend, man.
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Message: 10 Reply-To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> From: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> To: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Fw: [CR]Masi vs Waterford Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:21:37 -0700
> OK, why?
>
> You qualified your answer "for a bike I was going to ride".
Why
> choose Waterford for "riding"? Opens question why else would
you
> buy a bike? Collecting? Investing? Looking?
> Building/maintaining?Trying to get something going here that
may
> (or may not) stimulate list.
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rose" <rrose@normandassociates.com>
> To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:13 PM
> Subject: RE: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
>
>
> For a bike I was going to ride, I'd take the Waterford.
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Rawson [mailto:twrawson@worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:18 PM
> To: Rich Rose
> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
>
> Rich,
> Yah, sorry should have said 25 year old Masi. Hoping to hit two
> examples of higher quality production frames. Trying not to
lead
> answers but looking for list of attributes that includes not
only
> the visible - physical stuff but price/value, "history".
> Thanks
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rose" <rrose@normandassociates.com>
> To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net>;
> <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:38 AM
> Subject: RE: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
>
>
> Are we talking current Masi, as in "Milano", or comparing a
> vintage Masi
> with a current Waterford? No matter. I think that Waterfords
> might be
> the nicest "production" frames that I have seen. Others more
> knowledgeable than I may disagree? Not an RS or a Weigle
(Baylis,
> Bohemian etc...), perhaps, but really nice steel frames.
> Richard Rose (Toledo, Ohio)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of
> Thomas
> Rawson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:33 PM
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
>
> The old Product Manager in me is curious about something.
Wonder
> if the list is curious as well.
>
> Supposing you were going to buy a road bike today. Given our
> general preferences lets say it would be steel, lugged, one
> color.
>
> Would you buy a Masi or a Waterford and why?
>
> Tom Rawson
> Oakland, CA
> (formerly Brookline Village, MA and Guilford, CT)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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Message: 11 From: Roadgiant@cs.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:25:11 EDT To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]stuck handlebars
Sorry about this. I know there was a lengthy discussion of how to free stuck bars but I don't have any of those messages saved. And wouldn't you know, now I need the info. Would the guy who finally freed his bars pass along the way he did it? I'm trying to free a black anodized Cinelli 1/A from a Colnago head tube. Thanks.
Scott Smith LA
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Message: 12 Reply-To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> From: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> To: "Garrison Hilliard" <garrison@efn.org> Cc: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:38:43 -0700
OK what if you had the dough?
Tom Rawson
Oakland, CA
>
>
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Thomas Rawson wrote:
>
> > Would you buy a Masi or a Waterford and why?
>
> No, and because I don't have the dough to spend, man.
>
>
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Message: 13 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 200112:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Garrison Hilliard <garrison@efn.org> To: Thomas Rawson <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Thomas Rawson wrote:
> OK what if you had the dough?
Then I wouldn't be wasting it on bikes since I already have several wxcellent ones.
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Message: 14 To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:15:35 -0400 From: Richard M Sachs <richardsachs@juno.com> Subject: [CR]ebay
more stuff listed!!
thanks for looking.
e-RICHIE
http://ebay.com/
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Message: 15 From: "Mark Petry" <mpetry@bainbridgeisland.net> To: <Kevin.MacKinnon@kmz.com>, "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> Cc: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org> Subject: RE: [CR]Masi vs Waterford Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:22:05 -0700
I have a TIG welded Serotta Ti (Colorado) and it is the best handling bike I've ever ridden. I think the Serotta frame geometry is highly evolved and the ride is absolutely fabulous, a perfect blend of stability and responsiveness.
Vintage content: I've compared the Serotta with the likes of Singer, Hetchins, Cinelli, etc and I really believe the Serotta is the best riding bike period. Maybe not the prettiest, but the best ride / handling.
Strapping on my flame suit...
===================================================== Mark Petry 206.618.9642 Beautiful Bainbridge Island, WA mpetry@bainbridgeisland.net ===================================================== "Each receives a bag of tools, a shapeless mass, and book of rules. And each must fashion, ere life is flown, a stumbling block or a stepping stone"
R. L. Sharpe, 1890 =====================================================
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org]On Behalf Of Kevin.MacKinnon@kmz.com Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:53 AM To: Thomas Rawson Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford
I'd also be curious about the group's appraisal of Serotta's conspicuously lugged CSI.
_______________________________________________
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Message: 16 From: "Mark Plesko" <mark_plesko@hotmail.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:36:42 +0000 Subject: [CR]Storing bikes in hot attic
Hello,
I believe that this was discussed in the past but I can't find anything in the archives.
Could a vintage bicycle be damaged by storing it in a hot attic?
Thanks. Mark
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/
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Message: 17 From: LouDeeter@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:44:53 EDT Subject: Re: [CR]Storing bikes in hot attic To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Mark, I got lots of input on this when I moved to Florida. In general,here is what I got:
1. Chance for moisture buildup inside tubes because of high humidity in FL 2. Rubber hoods and tires will probably age faster and tubular glue and saddle glue may come undone. 3. Paint will not be harmed. 4. Grease may run to bottom of bb & hubs.
The only observed problem has been that the little pieces of tape that secure the handlebar tape have come unglued on all of my bikes.
I have 6 of my bikes in the attic. The temp has been 115-120 several times this summer inside the attic. But, the temp is routinely 95 inside the garage where I have the other bikes stored. So, short of bringing them inside the house, I'm not going to worry about it.
Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
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Message: 18 Reply-To: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> From: "Thomas Rawson" <twrawson@worldnet.att.net> To: "Charles Andrews" <chasa@classicalradio.org> Cc: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Masi vs Waterford Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:58:04 -0700
Was really thinking a 25 year old version of Masi. Didnt specify model, as Waterfords have different models as well. Thought would let respondent make distinction if he/she thought important. Thought by saying steel, lugs one color - modern Masis would be out, but thats my mistake - sorry. Without tipping hand, its a product managers kind of question having to do with what constitutes the stuff of "brand", image, quality, value, etc.
Thanks for response.
Tom Rawson
Oakland, CA
> A contemporary Masi, or a vintage Masi, and if a vintage Masi,
which flavor?
> Impossible to answer the question otherwise.
>
> If a contemporary Masi, I'd buy a Waterford with no hesitation.
Current
> Masis are anonymous and ugly. The only thing that's a Masi
about them is
> the name. Waterfords are beautifully designed and made and are
I own both a '99 Waterford 2200 and a '76 Masi GC. The comparison is
somewhat meaningless since they share few of the same qualities aside
from steel tubes and lugged construction. The Waterford is
wonderfully precise, tight and fast. I can descend at 50 mph on it
without a care...well, with just the usual cares that come at such
speeds. It's beautifully painted and has minimalist lugs. But the
brazing work is not perfect (small gaps in fork tangs and underside of
head tube lug). Nonetheless, I highly recommend it to anyone who wants
a quick handling and classically produced frame at a reasonable price.
As for the Masi, well, it just feels totally different. Much longer
feel in the front end, slower steering, more supple ride. Weighs a
couple pounds more with the NR kit but climbs very nicely. Its lugwork
(Eisentraut) is impeccable and understated, but looks showy compared
the Waterford (just competed the Masi rebuild and will post photos
soon). The experience of riding these two bikes is quite different
given the 23 years and different design goals that separate them.
Comparing them is a little like comparing Nocciola Gelato to Vanilla
Heath Crunch--in this regard my 3 year old says it all...ummmm!