Hello gang,
As Bob Reid stated some of the comments are mildly offensive (from a UK perspective to many folks) and are somewhat politically off the CR lists focus.
I think for this list the discussion of tax, freight and customs and related issues are very appropriate as they reflect the true cost of acquiring the items we cherish domestically and overseas.
I think Brian Corpus(sic?) and Steve Neago(below) may be overstating the rip-off argument on the 50th Anne groupo and Brooks Saddle sale potentially. I was not there and have no actual reference. I travel to the UK every year on buying trips and speak with dealers and manufacturers all over.
First (as I understand it and I am no expert, Bob Reid may have insight here that he might share as a UK merchant) is that the price of items in the United Kingdom have the VAT (Value Added Tax of 17.5%) added to but calculated in the final price of the goods.
So a Brooks Saddle listed for sale or tagged in a store of £50.00 pounds sterling has the VAT tax included in the £50.00 figure. In our store a Brooks saddle of $75.00 will have 6.5% (new North Carolina tax rate to pay for past disasters in our region) sales tax added on top ($3.38 sales tax) for a total price paid $78.38 by the consumer. In the USA this arrangement is the norm. A few states have no sales tax at all but they must get it back through insidious ways and devices I feel.
On my travels through the UK I have bought many things and cheerfully paid the 17.5% VAT with no regrets as it is one not forefront in my mind because it is hidden in the total cost; two because it is an extreme hassle for a merchant to comply normally because of the paper work (special forms which may not be on hand, bureaucracy, etc.) and thirdly because I actually like supporting the fine public works, transport and infrastructure that we call the United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and a few islands nearby. If you haven't been there it is a lovely contrast from almost anywhere in the US of A. Perhaps it has some shortcoming in the weather department but the Sun does pass through occasionally and it is just so green there!
The fellow that got a refund at the airport (by credit card a while later) did the correct thing as most small merchants (my target) are not readily equipped to process the VAT forms and the suffer an additional compliance cost that many are not willing to bare on the 1-4 % the typical retailer makes on a transaction after expenses.
A large purchase would certainly warrant adjustment at the airport but why bother or waste your time for trivial amounts of change that go to the public good of a country that is such a pleasure to visit. You time and aggravation must be worth more than 17.5%. Besides should you have a sudden need for children's clothing (I thought adults qualified too) or periodicals or books there is no tax what so ever. This is nation or serious readers and even convenience stores on the corner are crowded with books and magazines usually devoting more space to those items that the beer and soft drinks that dominate similar American establishments. Tourism is the UK's number one industry and it pays through VAT someone in the state would find an astonishing array of services including an excellent nationwide rail system, museums, social services, welfare, and universal health care. Most likely motorways and the lovely lanes as well are meticulously maintained by the modest (in my opinion) 17.5% tax. I am in good health with no problems and my health care insurance alone exceeds the 17.5% VAT and I add 6.5% for locally purchased goods to boot. It seems like UK residents are not so much ripped off but reaping some measurable rewards that I am somewhat envious here in my small berg.
No need for a thread on tax philosophy gang.
Respectfully submitted,
Gilbert "Under Paid and Under Taxed, well just maybe" Anderson
Raleigh, NC USA And now the great controversy over the Ebay Paypal $3.00 surcharge by Walt; where will it end?
In a message dated 12/9/01 9:10:05 PM, questor@cinci.rr.com writes:
<< I believe that discussions such as this are valid for discussion on the CR.
I once had the experience of trying to order a vintage part for an English
dealer via a search engine query. The dealer tried to add the VAT, even
though I explained that I am American and he was sending to a USA address.
The English dealer (name protected to prevent them from embarassment) quoted
me a price for a Brooks Pro seat and then tried to add on the VAT at the
last moment as they tried to assume the sale. I was prepared for this
possibility because I knew that the VAT does not apply to overseas
purchases. When I protested and asked the VAT not be included, they
declined to sell me the item with their last minute 17% markup in the total
price.
The bottom line is that the CR helps to teach its members about all things
that are bicycle classics, and learning about the VAT helps prepare
inexperienced members for some of the challenges they face with unethical
pricing.
I believe this CR discussion is worth pursuing...
Regards, Steve Neago
"Silent in Cincinnati, OH"
From: "Bob Reid" <bob.reid@btconnect.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: VAT and other evils (OT)
> I thought this was a Classic bike list and that totally OT, sarcastic,
> mildly offensive, and poorly researched (we stopped paying the poll tax
> years ago) comments such as these were not acceptable or has Dale written
a
> new set of rules?
>
> > From: Garrison Hilliard <garrison@efn.org>
> > Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:05:55 -0800 (PST)
> > To: Hugh Thornton <hughwthornton@hotmail.com>
> > Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Re: VAT and other evils (OT)
> >
> > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Hugh Thornton wrote:
> >
> >> ripped off at the 17.5% rate that the Brits do. But the Brits will put
up
> >> with anything and pride themselves on their stoicism.
> >
> > Including the Poll Tax and TV Permits!
> >
> > p.s. Really, folks... don't you miss the Empire?
>
> Bob Reid
> Stonehaven
> Scotland (where the word "brit" is reserved for Geri Haliwell types,
> newspapers and magazines with as much intelligent content as the National
> Enquirer, and by people with no sense of national identity)