[CR]RE: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1439 - 19 msgs

(Example: Framebuilding)

From: "Clive" <cqt@intercoast.com.au>
To: "'classicrendezvous@bikelist.org'" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:25:10 +1000
Organization: cqt
Encoding: 1089 TEXT
Subject: [CR]RE: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1439 - 19 msgs

Hi, could you suspend bulletins between the 3rd of July and 7th August please. See some of you at the Hetchins weekend. Best regards, Clive.

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org [SMTP:classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org] Sent: Monday, 24 June 2002 2:49 PM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1439 - 19 msgs

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CR

Today's Topics:

1. RE: New list member profile (Janis Johnson) 2. Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (GPVB1@cs.com) 3. Re: Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (Jerry & Liz Moos) 4. Crescent Decal Question for Garrison Hilliard (Randall R Robertson) 5. New List Member with Jack Taylor bike (David G. White) 6. Cuevas Touring Bike, 59cm, on ebay (LouDeeter@aol.com) 7. 'KRISPY KREME' Warning !!!!! (nickzz@mindspring.com) 8. Introduction (heddarr) 9. Masi Prestige Ebay Auction Results (Mark) 10. Re: Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (Richard Rose) 11. The right touring parts (Brandon Ives) 12. Re: Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (GPVB1@cs.com) 13. Fwd: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (GPVB1@cs.com) 14. Re: Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (DAVIDTESCH@aol.com) 15. Re: Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... (DAVIDTESCH@aol.com) 16. Re: Campagnolo Huret and the Bronze Age (Chuck Schmidt) 17. Arizona Fires and My First Bike (Art Smith) 18. Re: The right touring parts (David Feldman) 19. RE: Arizona Fires and My First Bike (Mark)

--__--__--

Message: 1 From: "Janis Johnson" <picabo58@earthlink.net> To: "Matthew Grimm" <matthewgrimm@yahoo.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: RE: [CR]New list member profile Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:51:24 -0700

Hey Matt, Welcome to the CR List! (otherwise known as "Dale's Living Room") 1. Don't put your feet on the coffee table. 2. Don't spit on the floor. 3. Don't cuss. Those are the three rules we must adhere to. Well...there are a couple others, but I forgot them.

I really enjoyed reading your profile. Following in the vein of "Roadside finds", it would be interesting and fun to start a thread, for everyone who is interested, to complete the same profile for themselves. Reading about your experiences at Spence Wolf's shop brought a tear to my eye. He was a great great man. Someone should write a book about those early years of Cupertino Bike Shop. How many hundreds, maybe thousands, of neo-cyclists did he turn on to Cinelli, Vittore Gianni wool, Clement Tubulars, and Campagnolo components?

Here are a few of my 'vitals':

Name: Jan (Causey) Johnson Birthdate: March 11, 1958 Place of birth: Salem, Oregon Philosophic note #1: Uphill BAD: downhill GOOD. First cycling memory: falling off my trike at age 3 and cutting a gash into my calf. I still have the scar. Cool! First bike: Huffy Girl's Stingray, with banana seat and sissy bar. Plastic basket with flowers on chopper handlebars. 1968 First good bike: Schwinn Varsity, Lemon Yellow, 25", $99.00. Purchased at Scott's Schwinn Cyclery in Salem, Oregon with money I earned working at my brother-in-law's gas station, pumping gas, the summer of 1973. Philosophic note #2: Fixed gear bikes RULE! First really good bike: 1978 PX-10, 25", that my boyfriend Peter Johnson won in the Senior 1-2 race at the Davis, CA Criterium on the 4th of July, 1978. (Our first real date.) Site of my first sewup purchase: Sugden and Lynch Bike Shop, Menlo Park, CA Site of my first fitting of cycling shorts: Peter's bedroom (wink-wink...!!) Next really good bike: A custom lugless 63cm PETER JOHNSON racing bike, painted midnight blue with all Campy NR. Favorite job ever: Mail Order Department of Avocet, above Palo Alto Bicycles. Summer of 1979. I loved slipping in free packets of E.R.G. Gookinaid into the orders and writing fun notes to customers all over the U.S. Next really good bike: A lugged 63cm PETER JOHNSON racing bike, painted by Brian Baylis a bright yellow (same color as Jobst Brandt's bike). Favorite bike of all time: 1954 Masi 'Speciale Corsa' in the Vintage Velos Museum in Cham, Switzerland. Mamma Mia! She's a beauty! http://www.vintagevelos.com/masi1954.html Philosophic note #2B: guys with shaved legs RULE! Heros: Eddy Merckx, Patrick Sercu, and Capt. (Ret.) Lindsay Crawford of Woodside, CA - 61 years old and still winning races. He has been a guiding force throughout my cycling career, for 24 years. Favorite moment on a bike: Getting to ride stoker and set a flying 200m time on the back of the track tandem with Leigh Barczewski at the 1981 World Track Championships in Brno, Czechoslovakia. WOW! Favorite moment off a bike: getting my ass pinched by three members of the Italian National Cycling Team in the elevator at Hotel Voronez in Brno, Czechoslovakia in September, 1981 at the World Track Cycling Championships. Oh yeah, and getting to meet Eddy, Patrick Sercu, and Daniel Morelon at the 1983 Track Worlds in Zurich. Sweet! Favorite bike part: my very first Campy NR 52 tooth chainring, drilled out by Peter. Favorite bike shop: Sugden and Lynch Bike Shop, Menlo Park, CA in the 1970's; Palo Alto Bike shop in the 1980's and The Bike Nook, San Francisco, today. (It has 'that' smell that drives us all wild!) Favorite frame builders: Peter Johnson (I HAVE to say that), Roland Della Santa, Brian Baylis, Richie Sachs, Jim Merz, Chris Kvale, Albert Eisentraut, Brian Spitz, Brent Steelman...have I forgotten anyone? I love 'em all. Philosophic note #3: The road from Sarnen, Switzerland up to Melchsee-Frutt and over to Engstlenalp is quite possibly the most beautiful bike ride in the world. It just does not get much better than this, folks. I'm guessing this is what heaven looks like. Philosophic note #4: never leave home without a patch kit, tire levers, and/or a spare tubular. Most embarrassing cycling moment: Cheering for Peter at Davis Criterium (see above), jumping up and down at the finish line, screaming...he exits the final turn and into the finish straight in the lead, with a pack of racers right behind. He uncorks his patented "Johnson Sprint" and annihilates the field to take the win. Watching all this, I got so excited screaming, I wet my pants. Philosophic note #5: A little bit of Fausto lives on in each and every one of us. Favorite Cycling Movie: Pee Wee's Big Adventure.

Ciao! Jan Johnson Portola Valley, California

--__--__--

Message: 2 From: GPVB1@cs.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:05:47 EDT To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah.....

Well....

I own a Teledyne precisely because it was virtually the first real production Ti frame (Speedwell Ti excepted), so it's historic and groundbreaking. I also own an NOS Graftek for exactly the same reasons.

That still dosesn't make that modern TIG'ed or screwed, glued, and tatooed stuff "classic."

As for what should be discussed on the CR list, I humbly suggest you go re-read the CR rules & regs.

Cheers,

Greg Parker A2 MI USA

Brandon I. wrote:


> Here we go again. "Classic" is NOT about a material it's about and (sic)
> aesthetic look and historical feelings about certain bikes. As
> evidence I use yesterdays (sic) thread on the seatpost size of the Teledyne
> Titan. The Titan is a tig welded oversized titanium (frame), and everyone
> seems to think it's a classic bike. The Exxon Graftex (sic) has it's (sic)
> own
> page on the CR list, so that must make it "classic" worthy. The list
> also talks about Vitus' (sic) and Alan's (sic) pretty regularly. I've got
> to ask (:)
> Greg would you pass up a Pino Morrini (sic) Ti frame if it came to you?
>
>

--__--__--

Message: 3 From: "Jerry & Liz Moos" <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> To: <GPVB1@cs.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:25:29 -0500

I agree. A bike in the classic era is a classic, especially one that was the first of a kind, even if that kind of bike eventially turns out, in the opinions of many here, to to be inferior to lugged steel. That's why I have two ALANS and a Teledyne, even though I wouldn't buy a modern Titanium or aluminum bike. This is in keeping with, for example, Hilary Stone's philosophy in his otstanding "Design Classics" column in Cycling Plus. He recently reviewed the all-plastic (or almost all) bike from Sweden as few decades ago. It was, as he explained, a total design disaster, but classic all the same.

Regards,

Jerry Moos
Houston, TX


----- Original Message -----
From: GPVB1@cs.com
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 3:05 PM
Subject: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah.....


> Well....
>
> I own a Teledyne precisely because it was virtually the first real production
> Ti frame (Speedwell Ti excepted), so it's historic and groundbreaking. I also
> own an NOS Graftek for exactly the same reasons.
>
> That still dosesn't make that modern TIG'ed or screwed, glued, and tatooed
> stuff "classic."
>
> As for what should be discussed on the CR list, I humbly suggest you go
> re-read the CR rules & regs.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Greg Parker
> A2 MI USA
>
>
> Brandon I. wrote:
>
>
> > Here we go again. "Classic" is NOT about a material it's about and (sic)
> > aesthetic look and historical feelings about certain bikes. As
> > evidence I use yesterdays (sic) thread on the seatpost size of the Teledyne
> > Titan. The Titan is a tig welded oversized titanium (frame), and everyone
> > seems to think it's a classic bike. The Exxon Graftex (sic) has it's (sic)
> > own
> > page on the CR list, so that must make it "classic" worthy. The list
> > also talks about Vitus' (sic) and Alan's (sic) pretty regularly. I've got
> > to ask (:)
> > Greg would you pass up a Pino Morrini (sic) Ti frame if it came to you?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

--__--__--

Message: 4 To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:09:47 -0400 From: Randall R Robertson <randallrobertson@juno.com> Subject: [CR]Crescent Decal Question for Garrison Hilliard

Garrson and Group, I have a 1970 Crescent. It has a bunch of decals in Swedish. I contacted the Crescent factory and following is their explanation of the decals. My hard drive crashed but I printed a hard copy of Crescent's e-mail, I will type it just as reads: Hallo Randall I have read your e-mail to Tommy about Your Crescent-bike. The frame No: 4554887 says thate the bicycle is produced about 1970. Reynolds 531 Butted tubes: that means that the top and down tube hade a thickness In the middle of the tubes 0,5mm and at the head tube 0,8mm. The decal: guld kvalitet = goldqualitet. The decal: Crescent varldsmastarcykeln = Crescent worldchampion bicycle. The decal: lattagangslager = "easy going bearing" The name Valrldsmastarcykeln (worldchampions bicycle) came from a world Champion in team on bicycle there Crecsent had four brothers from a little place in Sweden called Vargarda. They came at the first place on this Crescent bikes and they was worldchampions, I think is was about 1968-69. If You send me your adress, I shall send You same decals. In this e-mail I enclosed a photo on a Crescent racebike from 1968. (See Attached file: Crescent racer year mod 1968.jpg) Regards James Johansson QC Dept. Cycleurope Sverige AB Mr. Johansson did send me the decals and key chains he promised! Hope this helps you. By the way the Crescent I have is for sale. Sorry is does it dose not come with the beautiful accessory pictured in earlier "Crescent Post"post. You will have to work you Q all by your self! Following is a copy of the original sale post: I purchased this 56-cm 1970 Crescent, Racer 92320 PEPITA SPECIAL, serial number 4554887 new. Equipment incledes Campagnolo hubs, NISI wheels, Weinmann center pull brakes, Simplex derailers, Nevar 170mm cotter cranks, Zeaus seat post, Ideal saddle (I think), and Shimano replacement freewheel. This bike is original except the left pedal, handle bar tape, and freewheel. Asking $400.00 OBO. Anyone interested please contact me (randallrobertson@juno.com) for pictures and more details. Best regards, Randall R. Robertson

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Message: 5 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:55:32 -0400 From: "David G. White" <whiteknight@adelphia.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]New List Member with Jack Taylor bike

Hi,

I'm a new list member. I've been silent for about a week, but decided it's time to introduce myself. I'm not an expert or even very knowledgeable like many on the list. But I'm interested and glad to be along with all of you for the ride (so to speak).

I've got a vintage 1974 Jack Taylor (beautiful black and white with the classic Jack Taylor box pin-stripes). I purchased the frame new in the summer of 1974 (I still have to original receipt!) when I was working in a bike shop in Chicago during college. I built it up with a motley assortment of parts I either had on hand or could afford as a poor college student. I scrounged up a Campy headset and seatpost, built wheels with the original version (and very sweet) large flange Dura-Ace hubs and Weinmann 27 x 1 & 1/8" rims, splurged on the first version Dura-Ace brakes (real beauties -- even 28 years later!), settled for a Shimano Crane rear derailleur, Sun-Tour front derailleur, and Sugino Mighty Comp crankset and BB, and added Sun-Tour's excellent bar-end shifters, a Brooks Pro saddle, etc. Over the years, I eventually replaced the Dura-Ace brake grips with Shimano 600 (they were nearly identical to the original "drilled" Dura-Ace, but for the 600 logo) when I took a spill and broke one of the Dura-Ace ones, and I had to replace the Sun-Tour bar-end shifters with newer Shimano ones when the Sun-Tours ceased to work properly. Otherwise the bike was as I built it 28 years ago, until this year.

Last summer I began to get back into cycling after many years with no more than casual rides with family and friends. By fall I decided to challenge myself and did my first ever century ride. There I was riding the Vermont roads on my 28 year old 10 speed trying to keep up with a very friendly crew of younger folks with modern 18 to 27 speed equipment. I did all right -- I felt very proud of making it to the end. But I decided I'd like to try some of the newer stuff. The local bike shop told me it would cost $700 to $800 to buy and install all the modern parts needed. Way more than I was willing to spend.

So this spring I went to a bike swap and bought an eight year old bike with 14 spd Shimano 105 SIS index shifting equipment in excellent condition for $125. I dug out my old bike tools and went to work. I stripped the Jack Taylor bare. It had very badly chipped paint after 28 years use, so I did the best I could touching up the paint at home (It looks fine -- from about ten feet away!). I swapped on the 105 drivetrain and wheels, but kept the original top-side equipment.

The bike was fine before, but what a nice enhancement the newer stuff is. I love it! It's a new ride again. I've never had index shifting before and despite my initial skepticism, I like it. And even after all these years, the frame still has great feel and is relatively easy on my middle-aged body. I just took an excellent ride today with the Green Mountain Bike Club through the Warren-Waitsfield area. Nice.

Some day I may restore my Jack Taylor; who knows? But for now I'm more interested in continuing to use it as my regular ride -- which means newer components -- than I am in keeping it original. If I eventually restore it, I'll probably do it all vintage Campy (as I would have liked to have built it originally, if I could have afforded it), or all vintage Dura-Ace, or a mix of the two, rather than re-install my original parts -- I'd welcome comments on this.

For me, getting a newer bike is both not necessary and not a realistic option. I have very long legs (I'm 6'4" with a 36" inseam) which is what led me to buy the Jack Taylor frame in the first place. It is a true 26" frame which would be what, about a 66cm frame in today's sizing? Where would I get one of those without going to a custom frame builder and spending a fortune? And besides, everything I hear, including on the CR list, suggests my Jack Taylor Reynolds 531 double-butted steel frame with Nervex lugs and campy drop-outs is every bit as good as I could buy today for the kind of touring and distance riding I do.

My Jack Taylor is well-used (I have no idea how many miles I've put on in 28 years), has a well worn and badly touched up paint job (but its original beauty still shines through!), and it has a few dings. But it's straight and true and still a great ride.

That's my Jack Taylor story. Thanks for listening.

By the way does anyone know where I can get a complete set of Jack Taylor decals for my future restoration job?

David White Burlington, Vermont

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Message: 6 From: LouDeeter@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:55:56 EDT To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Cuevas Touring Bike, 59cm, on ebay

http://ebay.com/<blah>

59cm, a bit large for me. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL

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Message: 7 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:21:18 -0400 From: <nickzz@mindspring.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Reply-To: nickzz@mindspring.com Subject: [CR]'KRISPY KREME' Warning !!!!!

Fellow list members there is one thing which banishes you from the list for one week.

[1]No it is not leaving out your name & location. [2]It is not saying bad about Mario,Tullio,Falerio

DON'T ever do the unforgivable.

Misspell the official food of the group.

'KRISPY KREME' 'KRISPY KREME' 'KRISPY KREME'

See you in a week !!!

I have learned my lesson.

Nick Zatezalo Atlanta,Ga.

P.S. I hope Krystal doesn't become the official burger of choice.

--__--__--

Message: 8 From: "heddarr" <heddarr@indianaconnect.com> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:00:09 -0400 Subject: [CR]Introduction

Greetings

I have enjoyed lurking but I suppose that I should make an = introduction.

My bikes are presently. a.. Late 70's Peugeot. . . My daily rider. =20 b.. Out of timeline c'dale 3.0 with shimano 600 (non index) but = clipless pedals.=20 c.. Unknown model or year Zeus "rescued from a bike shops recycling = pile." This years restoration project.=20 d.. 1977 Serotta Club Series, Campagnolo NR, original owner. I was = 17. Graduated from a "Fantom", a bike boom atrocity that I got at the = Western Auto=20 e.. A Dura Ace group waiting for an interesting frame. HMMM . . .a = yellow Romic with brass plated dropouts.=20 f.. Had a Linear OSS recumbent for a year and keep thinking about an = easy racer.

Drawn to steel because it was what we had back in "77" in the tender = years of my love for bicycles.

Stick with steel because of the way my c'dale makes me feel after = riding.

Like slack angles and looong wheelbases. =20

Drawn to American Framebuilders then because IMHO they demonstrated a = level of craftsmanship that was magnitudes better than anything the = continental Europeans and Raleigh had to offer. Please no hate mail. =20

Have really enjoyed looking at the pictures of those keeping the flame. = IMHO Americans still do it best. =20

Afraid of what ebay will do to my philosophy of "spend less than you = make and do it for a long time."

Really was tempted by the NR brake pads that were just up for bid.

Howard Darr Clymer PA

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Message: 9 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:59:51 -0400 From: Mark <rena.cutrufelli@comcast.net> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Reply-To: rena.cutrufelli@comcast.net Subject: [CR]Masi Prestige Ebay Auction Results

I think some said they were watching this auction which has ended:

http://ebay.com/<blah>

Note that someone mentioned that one the measurements, I think the 58.5" (" Size is 50.5 c-c,top lenght is 58.5") was unintentionally wrong.... The description of the former owner was interesting "(owner was a wool-jersey wearin,old-school rayban sportin dude.and out here this is a sort of quality trademark when u go buyin used bikes") I am trying to picture it. Ray-bans span a lot of generations up to the Tom Cruise Top Gun Era.-does this mean someone in their 50's, or at least late 40's? To me that description says says traditional, and somewhat fit .

Mark Cutrufelli in Laurel,MD

---

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Message: 10 From: "Richard Rose" <rmrose@toast.net> To: <GPVB1@cs.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:53:02 -0400

Yikes! This again... At least there is the possibility of an interesting conversation this time, what with Greg's mention of the Teledyne & Graftec bikes in the same message as the word "classic". So (treading in dangerous waters here), what makes something "classic"? I'd just like to suggest that maybe the thing working well for it's intended purpose would be a prerequisite. If that were true, our new friends (welcome David White), 28 year old Jack Taylor, even with updated indexing shifters, surely qualifies. So would Lance's OCLV bikes. But the Teledyne & Graftec bikes? From what I here they both broke a lot. Jerry Moos suggests a bike can be a "total design disaster" and still be a classic. Personally I'm not so sure. So Greg, are you suggesting that none of the newer bikes could ever be classics? Not even if they were both groundbreaking & worked well? Perhaps a Klein or C40 as a couple of examples. Remember I don't own any of these "modern" bikes either, but I suspect that 25 or 30 years from now I'll wish I did. Richard Rose, just thinking out loud in Toledo, Ohio


----- Original Message -----
From: GPVB1@cs.com
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 4:05 PM
Subject: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah.....


> Well....
>
> I own a Teledyne precisely because it was virtually the first real production
> Ti frame (Speedwell Ti excepted), so it's historic and groundbreaking. I also
> own an NOS Graftek for exactly the same reasons.
>
> That still dosesn't make that modern TIG'ed or screwed, glued, and tatooed
> stuff "classic."
>
> As for what should be discussed on the CR list, I humbly suggest you go
> re-read the CR rules & regs.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Greg Parker
> A2 MI USA

--__--__--

Message: 11 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:28:03 -0700 To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org From: Brandon Ives <monkeylad@mac.com> Subject: [CR]The right touring parts

So I bit on Chris Beyer's Centurion ProTour since I'm trying to get the Japanese collection started. Right now I'm just going to build it up with a mish-mash of what I've got in boxes, mainly Campagnolo, TA, and Blackburn. Eventually I'd like to get it set up as a top-end touring bike of the day. The question is should I build it up with Japanese touring stuff, Sugino, Suntour, Nitto, etc. or should I build it with a real top-end mix of the time, Phil Wood, Huret, Bruce Gordon? First things first I'll be needing center-pull brakes. What should I use? thanks folks, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives Must get back to Futurama in Santa Barbara, Calif.

--__--__--

Message: 12 From: GPVB1@cs.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:29:36 EDT Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... To: rmrose@toast.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Hi Richard:

No, I didn't say that nothing made currently could ever be a classic. I said I don't find anything that's currently glued or TIG'ed together particularly interesting or aesthetically pleasing. I don't care for Toyota Camrys either, because they are just so boring and cookie-cutter-ish (to me) compared to other options, but Toyota sure sells boatloads of 'em.

It takes time for anything to even be considered as a potential "classic." Many groups consider a minimum of twenty-five years' passage of time to be a good minimum guideline (indeed, my Secretary of State tells me that I can register an old car as "historic" at that point - maybe a bit of a stretch, but certainly "vintage" seems appropriate). However, I would guess that many of our listmembers "across the pond" would get a chuckle out of all that, as they have buildings that are millenia old and still in use! We are are a relatively young nation here in Amurrica, so old is a relative thing....

One could say that something new is "done in a classic style," and I think we do say just that from time to time on this list. Think Rivs or several other "classically styled and executed" lugged steel steeds. Go back and read Dale's guidelines for what is and is not on-topic here on the CR; I think it's fairly clear. If it doesn't seem to be, then ask Dale about any specific case you might have. It's his call....

I wouldn't at all agree that Lance's OCLV is classic in any way. It may be current state of the art to some, but certainly not classic, at least not right now.

A big part of collecting is often reliving one's childhood or college years, so it is certainly possible that something like an OCLV that a college student can't afford today will become coveted in twenty-five or thirty years when that (generally male) college student is middle-aged and can afford to buy a mint one for $18,000.

Additionally, I don't recall that many Grafteks breaking, at least not anywhere near the rate of Titan fork breakage. Remember also that the Grafteks were raced with some success (by the Stetina brothers, for example). They had a much better "feel" than the Titans in many people's opinion.

Cheers,

Greg Parker A2 MI USA

Richard R. wrote:

<snip>


> So Greg, are you suggesting that none of the newer bikes could ever be
> classics? Not even if they were both groundbreaking & worked well? Perhaps a
> Klein or C40 as a couple of examples.
> Remember I don't own any of these "modern" bikes either, but I suspect that
> 25 or 30 years from now I'll wish I did.
> Richard Rose, just thinking out loud in Toledo, Ohio
>

--__--__--

Message: 13 From: GPVB1@cs.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:44:47 EDT Subject: Fwd: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org


> Richard:
>
> P.S.:
>
> The Klein comment got me thinking....
>
> A lavender Klein Team Super built when Gary was still heavily involved in
> making them and they still had the Boron reinforcing is a "Classic" in my
> book. Talk about a ground-breaking frameset....
>
> Make mine a mint-condition 60cm c-t please.....
>

As for the Trek-Kleins, no way. Not in a million years IMHO. Multiple reasons.
> Regards,
>
> Greg Parker
> A2 MI USA
>
> In a message dated 6/23/02 9:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> rmrose@toast.net writes:
>
>
> >> So Greg, are you suggesting that none of the newer bikes could ever be
>> classics? Not even if they were both groundbreaking & worked well? Perhaps
>> a
>> Klein or C40 as a couple of examples.
>> Remember I don't own any of these "modern" bikes either, but I suspect that
>> 25 or 30 years from now I'll wish I did.
>> Richard Rose, just thinking out loud in Toledo, Ohio
>>
>
>

--__--__--

Message: 14 From: DAVIDTESCH@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:49:17 EDT Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... To: GPVB1@cs.com, rmrose@toast.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

In a message dated 6/23/02 7:33:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GPVB1@cs.com writes:


>
>
> Additionally, I don't recall that many Grafteks breaking, at least not
> anywhere near the rate of Titan fork breakage. Remember also that the
> Grafteks were raced with some success (by the Stetina brothers, for
> example).
> They had a much better "feel" than the Titans in many people's opinion.
>
>

Remember old does not mean classic, and classic doesn't have to be old. Speedwell, Graftec, titan, are indeed classic, if not for any other reason their historical significance, their bold move forward. I have a Facet Biocam frame, Anybody got parts? Dave Tesch Milwaukee, Wisconsin. USA, Earth

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Message: 15 From: DAVIDTESCH@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:51:20 EDT Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Here we go again, modern classics, blah, blah, blah..... To: GPVB1@cs.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

In a message dated 6/23/02 7:49:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GPVB1@cs.com writes:


> still had the Boron reinforcing

Boron AND putty

Dave Tesch Milwaukee Wisconsin USA Earth

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Message: 16 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:15:24 -0700 From: Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net> Reply-To: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Campagnolo Huret and the Bronze Age

Mark Bulgier wrote:
>
> Chuck Schmidt wrote:
>
> > > The bar end shifter that preceeded the downtube
> > > shifter was only made in aluminum from my
> > > understanding.
> >
> > Scott Davis wrote:
> > >
> > > Chuck, here's a bronze bar end shifter, which I once
> > > owned...
> >
> http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/vwp?.dir=/RARE+CAMPY&.src=ph&.dnm=Cam py+Commando+Derag+Centrale.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/lst%3f%26.dir=/RARE%2bCAMPY%26.src=ph%26.view=t
>
> Scott, why do you think those parts are bronze? Can you see bronze somewhere
> where the plating is worn off, or...? I have to say, just from looking at
> the photo, it sure looks like aluminum to me. Brass or bronze bike parts
> are usually chrome plated, and I'll bet a gross of twizzlers the part in the
> pic isn't chromed. It's possible nowadays to plate bronze to look like
> aluminum, good enough to fool me in a picture that size anyway, but that
> wasn't done back then that I know of.

Mark, Scott told me that these were his before he sold them and that they were very heavy feeling levers. Since Campagnolo introduced the Gran Sport derailleur with bar end shifters and the down tube shifters came later and the dt shifters were first made in chrome plated bronze it stands to reason that the preceding bar end shifters would be chrome plated bronze too. Any opinions out there?

Maybe the ones in the picture are chrome plated but have not be buffed out during the chroming process so look matt instead of shiny?

Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, Southern California

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Message: 17 From: "Art Smith" <ahsmith49@cox.net> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:10:29 -0700 Subject: [CR]Arizona Fires and My First Bike

I apologize is this is off topic, but the incredible fires burning in Northern Arizona have made me distracted and pensive and I thought writing it out might help. In 1967 when I graduated from high school I worked in Yellowstone Park and ended up fighting fires in Glacier Park. When I got back to Tucson to start school I bought my first real bike, with the money I made, at Kittles Bike and Key Shop on Speedway. It was an orange gold Astra with drop bars, a Brooks saddle, and Suntour components. It wasn't a very good bike by CR standards, but it changed my life as bikes often do. The images of the fires on TV and the true human tragedy--the loss of one's property and possessions--have made me think about priorities. I have a boatload of bikes on my property but if I had a half hour to pack up a life's worth of stuff into a vehicle, a lot of what seems so important at any one moment, would have to be left behind. The people who have left those small towns have said that they made sure that what they got out were their family members and family photos....Everything else can be replaced. I find that pretty interesting. ( A final note....the wood at Home Depot has a moisture content of 19%....the moisture content of the wood in the trees in Northern Arizona is 8%!)

Art Smith Phoenix, Az

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Message: 18 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:16:06 -0700 (PDT) From: David Feldman <feldmanbike@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [CR]The right touring parts To: Brandon Ives <monkeylad@mac.com>, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Brandon, I sold those. As a stock bike, the equipment was: Crankset: Mighty Tour double, 34/52 Wheels: 27" Araya rims, Sunshine Gyromaster hubs, 5-speed 14-28 Suntour Pro Compe freewheel--when charted the gearing made no sense for any kind of riding! Derailleurs: Suntour Cyclone front and Cyclone GT rear with barcon shifters Brakes: Dia Comp centerpulls on those brazed posts with Gran Compe levers, qrs and adjusters in levers Handlebar: SR Randonneur, SR stem, cheesy thin cloth tape, also similarly cheesy cheap Unicanitor copy saddle with bad quilted padding and vinyl cover. A later version used an SR Stronglight 99-copy crank in a triple ring, the gearing made a lot more sense that way.

Happy reassembling--I think you'll do a much better job than the original spec person did!
David Feldman
Vancouver, WA


--- Brandon Ives wrote:


> So I bit on Chris Beyer's Centurion ProTour since
> I'm trying to get
> the Japanese collection started. Right now I'm just
> going to build
> it up with a mish-mash of what I've got in boxes,
> mainly Campagnolo,
> TA, and Blackburn. Eventually I'd like to get it
> set up as a top-end
> touring bike of the day. The question is should I
> build it up with
> Japanese touring stuff, Sugino, Suntour, Nitto, etc.
> or should I
> build it with a real top-end mix of the time, Phil
> Wood, Huret, Bruce
> Gordon? First things first I'll be needing
> center-pull brakes. What
> should I use?
> thanks folks,
> Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
> Must get back to Futurama
> in Santa Barbara, Calif.
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

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Message: 19 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:34:16 -0400 From: Mark <rena.cutrufelli@comcast.net> Subject: RE: [CR]Arizona Fires and My First Bike To: Art Smith <ahsmith49@cox.net>, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Reply-To: rena.cutrufelli@comcast.net

My son lives in Colorado,fairly near the fires. He too has been very moved, upset by the damage he sees on the news daily. "Nothing can be done but watch the state burn" he said. Thankfully,he will be home to visit Monday.

My first derailler bike was an Astra too. I think it was really a rebadged Motobecane.. but I could be wrong. I think mine was made in Belgium. It was gold too! Had a Brooks saddle and lively feel as best I can remember. Now I was really light then. Really light. 67 pounds in 8th grade.So I don't know that others would agree with this reflective assessment.Shifting was not really crisp; never was, so maybe mine didn't have good Suntour. I lent it to a young boy for a few days and he moved away with it.Oh well.

Best Wishes, Mark Cutrufelli in Laurel,MD

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org]On Behalf Of Art Smith Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:10 AM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Arizona Fires and My First Bike

I apologize is this is off topic, but the incredible fires burning in Northern Arizona have made me distracted and pensive and I thought writing it out might help. In 1967 when I graduated from high school I worked in Yellowstone Park and ended up fighting fires in Glacier Park. When I got back to Tucson to start school I bought my first real bike, with the money I made, at Kittles Bike and Key Shop on Speedway. It was an orange gold Astra with drop bars, a Brooks saddle, and Suntour components. It wasn't a very good bike by CR standards, but it changed my life as bikes often do. The images of the fires on TV and the true human tragedy--the loss of one's property and possessions--have made me think about priorities. I have a boatload of bikes on my property but if I had a half hour to pack up a life's worth of stuff into a vehicle, a lot of what seems so important at any one moment, would have to be left behind. The people who have left those small towns have said that they made sure that what they got out were their family members and family photos....Everything else can be replaced. I find that pretty interesting. ( A final note....the wood at Home Depot has a moisture content of 19%....the moisture content of the wood in the trees in Northern Arizona is 8%!)

Art Smith Phoenix, Az

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