I think Dave hit the nail on the head cuz' I agree with him on every point. Consider this: of the hundreds of frames I've built, exactly 6 were not equipped with stainless dropouts. Every frame I've built, save my first, used stainless braze-ons (cable stops, etc.). S&S frame couplers? I've never built a complete frame out of Metax, but I've built several bikes using Metax chainstays or Metax headtubes. I've never experienced any failures related to the stainless components, whether they were joined by silver, silver-nickel, or tig welded -- not on MTBs, track bikes or road frames. Further, every steel tig frame I build is joined using a stainless steel filler material (880T by the WeldMold company). I use 880T simply becuase its mechanical properties are vastly superior to the normal steel filler metals.
Stainless steel is an incredibly versatile material and if the alloy is selected and used properly it can outperform even the highest quality steels. While it's true that many stainless steels (3 series) can't be heat-treated to the strength levels of HSLA steels (high strength, low alloy, i.e., many modern steel frame tubes), their mechanical properties can be increased through cold working (i.e., forming, shaping, forging, butting) to phenominal values (circa 250-350K UTS if required). Even in an annealed form, most of the 3 series stainless has a Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) equivalent to 4130 and retain amazing elongation properties. The 4 series stainless and the precipitation hardening stainless alloys (15-5, 17-4, etc.) can all be heat treated to amazing mechanical properties.
Why did Metax fail as a Columbus product? Dunno', but I suspect it was because they never bothered to develop it beyond it's initial offering, it was heavy (about like Columbus Max) and it came on the heals of the Ti invasion. It's interesting to note that Columbus' Ti offering, Hyperion, also failed.
Cheers! Don Ferris Littleton Colorado
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org]On Behalf Of davebohm Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 10:09 AM To: rocklube@adnc.com; jimmycue@att.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Stainless steel bike
With all due respect Brian,
I truly believe that there is just a bunch of anecdotal evidence and mis-information concerning constructing a bike frame out of stainless. This concerns drop-outs, braze-ons etc.
I won't harp this anymore after this, as it does not really pertain to this list (although I am under the impression that stainless bike frames have existed far before 1990, anyone have any knowledge of this?)
The fact is that there is nothing inherently wrong with stainless as a material for bicycles. There are an incredible number of alloys, some are poor for this purpose, some could work great. Metax, from Columbus was a very good material. Failures occurred, but only in the TIG welded variety and I believe this to be cause from inadequate welding procedures, not the material.
In the proper alloys it is not heavier, weaker, more brittle than normal high tensile steels. Honestly it mimics Titanium more than standard steels in its toughness and elongation.
Stainless, can be very difficult to braze correctly and for this reason alone it will never be a production material. If it ever came around in some form again, which I doubt it would still be limited to the custom builder who has adequate experience in its fabrication.
Dave Bohm Bohemian Tucson AZ
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Baylis To: jimmycue@att.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [CR]Stainless steel bike
Jimmy,
Stainless steel bike bits may sound like a good idea, but the reason it did not catch on is because it probably isn't.
Seems logical, no?
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
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