Steven,
Thanks for the information. A bike that is represented as a 1950's bike as in the case of the Harry Butler frame are easily detected as obviously not genuine by anyone who knows frame components. The "funny thing is the counterfeits have more accurate old style lugs than the current official Hetchins. Also, the "WRONG" curve to the chainstays on the replicas is more pleasing than the official ones to my eye. Neither curve is like the the older original ones; although the David Miller frames are closer to the original the bends they are too sharp which produces an ungraceful look to me. The original curves are best but the counterfeit stays look nicer to me between the modern types.
The counterfeit Hetchins I saw several years ago did not have the level of workmanship I see in these replicas. That one was poor work all the way around. I still wonder, what happened to that frame?
I feel better now, knowing there is more information available regarding these frames and the replicas, etc.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
So where are the Hetchins trikes?
>
> The "counterfeit" burgundy/silver Hetchins pictured at
> http://www.hetchins.org/
> the replica on display at A Bicycle Odyssey, unless it has since been sold)
> ... and we sold two other replicas that were built by Ron.
>
> Ron told us (at the time) that he was building replica frames under contract
> ... when the whole big mess started 2 years ago with David Miller asserting
> that Ron never built a Hetchins (counterfeit or otherwise) is when I joined
> the list.
>
> When I left ABO/NorCal this past January to move to Salt Lake City, we
> believed that there was simply a misunderstanding about what rights Ron had
> to build replica frames ... Ron incorrectly thinking he had the rights to
> sell in the US.
>
> My biggest issue was that people who had never seen the frame were asserting
> that it was shoddy construction ... when it quite simply is not.
>
> I know that Dale was in the Bay Area recently ... he had planned on making a
> stop at ABO just to check things out (and to meet me, but alas, I had moved
> 6 months previously) ... I'm not sure if he actually made it across the
> bridge, but if so, he should be able to provide some insight as to his
> opinion of this particular frame.
>
> The two frames we sold, and the one we still had on display were always
> represented as Hetchins replicas ... not as original frames.
>
> on 09/27/2002 02:00 AM, Brian Baylis at rocklube@adnc.com wrote:
>
> > pam,
> >
> > Who owns the name isn't really the issue I suppose. The issue is more
> > who is building them. As has been mentioned, some are purported to have
> > been built by Ron Cooper. Since I see Hetchins all the time in the bare
> > form; although the overall performance may be the same, the quality of
> > construction does vary with the builder. Each frame can be judged upon
> > it's own merits; but one who is seeking to buy a Hetchins will naturally
> > be curious who made it if it is a modern one.
> >
> > Personally, I have a preferance for the older frames. They were made
> > with different lugs and tubes and generally exhibit a higher level of
> > craftsmanship than the modern versions from my observations. That is not
> > unusual, just as there is a distinction between Masis built at different
> > times. I can't say I've seen a Cooper built Hetchins, but I suspect it
> > would be cleaner work than most of the "modern" Hetchins I've seen; and
> > I own 3 of those myself. If I knew that if I ordered a Hetchins and it
> > would be built by Ron Cooper I would be rather excited since my feeling
> > is that Ron Cooper is probably the cream of the crop in English
> > framebuilders. I respect the work of other Hetchins builders; but
> > honestly they aren't the level of the Ron Coopers I've seen. The other
> > issue in this case is that there are most probably some "genuine
> > counterfeit" Hetchins floating around. One I saw was a horrible piece of
> > work and wasn't authentic in it's use of lugs and other features. If I
> > had bought that frame thinking I was buying a "real" Hetchins I would
> > have been VERY disappointed.
> >
> > To further add concern to this bucket of maggots; I think there are some
> > older straight stay frames that are being converted to vibrant rear
> > stays. No big deal as long as that is made known to someone who is
> > planning on buying such a thing. I can spot them right away and they do
> > not have the "feel" of original bikes that were made with vibrant stays
> > in that to my eye they are obviously a mixture of an old frame (and the
> > old style workmanship) and some new tubes that are not "harmonious" in
> > their appearance.
> >
> > So retrograde companies are common, but in this case there is some
> > extra stuff going on that have many of us guessing at what is actually
> > going on. It's more curiousity than anything else; but what one pays for
> > what frame is something that matters to potential buyers.
> >
> > If one wants to be "safe" then make sure you are buying an early 70's or
> > before frame that is all original tubes at least; hopefully paint and
> > decals original as well. "Modern" Hetchins are divided similarly to
> > Masis in that past a certain point the value as a collectable changes.
> >
> > Anyone have a verifyable built by Ron Cooper Hetchins? I'd really like
> > to see that. Lots of good quality photos would be OK but I'd rather see
> > the frame in the flesh. My hope is that if there is such a thing the
> > work is clean and sharp and the lugs are thinned evenly and the stays
> > have the "older" more graceful bend as opposed to the bend on the modern
> > stays. I have heard some say they see no differance in the bend of the
> > stays; but I know I'm not imagining things. I can see it a mile away.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA
> >
> >>
> >> What difference doe's it make? One can surmise his/her own theories,
> >> but the fact remains that "Hetchin's" (in quotes) is a retrograde
> >> company, just like Masi was after Faliero dropped out of the picture.
> >> Who cares who owns the name? Anything else is just an attempt at the
> >> real deal, IMHO.
> >>
> >> PJK
> >>
> >> Western NY
> >>
> >> Brian Baylis wrote:
> >>
> >> Tom,
> >>
> >> I used to think I knew what the story was with Hetchins',
> >> but that
> >> notion went out the window about a year ago. I'm confused as
> >> to what is
> >> what now. There also seems to be some "reworking" of older
> >> Hetchins
> >> frames that is further clouding the issue. What I don't
> >> understand is
> >> why there are no deffinitive answers comming out of the UK.
> >> Certainly
> >> some straight shooter exists who is willing to step up to
> >> the plate and
> >> take a swing at this, no? This seems like a rather larger
> >> enough issue
> >> for there to be some solid information regarding this
> >> subject. Where is
> >> it??
> >>
> >> About all I can put into the stew is that I believe Jake
> >> Riveria owns
> >> the Hetchins rights and was the owner of BJ during the 1985
> >> to whenever
> >> period also. The rest of the story is a mystery.
> >>
> >> Brian Baylis
> >> La Mesa, CA
> >>>
> >>> A quick look at the bikes appearing at next weekend's Velo
> >> Rendezvous reveals more than a passing interest by this
> >> group in Hetchins. Dale's website and Flash' "unofficial"
> >> website provide amazing support for this Marque. This year's
> >> larz Anderson show and even the Cupertino swap a couple
> >> years ago brought out mulitple examples.
> >>>
> >>> There was an active thread on the CR list and some teeth
> >> gnashing last year when that group in the UK tried to
> >> appropriate the name. Indeed more than a little rain fell on
> >> a certain bike shop in Sausalito (sorry Steven) for
> >> displaying a "fake".
> >>>
> >>> At the risk of antagonizing anyone at Bob Jackson's, (I
> >> dont want to cause I own one and love it), and realizing
> >> theres the potential for a little industry politics here,
> >> has anyone seen the history section on their newer website?
> >>>
> >>> Heres the relevant excerpt and then the link:
> >>>
> >>> "More overseas sales followed & by the early eighties more
> >> of the traditional framebuilders & painters were turning to
> >> JRJ cycles for their production needs & it was to one of
> >> these companies that Bob turned when he wanted to retire.
> >>> The owners of the "Hetchins" brand had used JRJ Cycles
> >> exclusively to build their curly stayed frames since 1977 &
> >> so seemed a natural buyer for the company in 1987 as Bob
> >> felt he had been at the helm for long enough.
> >>> Things did not go well during the following years but
> >> fortunately Bob was cajoled by Donald Thomas to help rescue
> >> the company that he had spent so long in running & in 1993
> >> Bob Jackson Cycles started from the low point of the rented
> >> industrial unit that the old management had landed the
> >> company in." (italic and bolding is mine)
> >>>
> >>> http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/
> >>>
> >>> Anyone know who owned Hetchins in 1977? 1993? Since
> >> Hetchins moved to Southend in 1974 and Jack Denny is said to
> >> have continued to build (though in his 70's) till the early
> >> eighties, can Bob Jackson claim to be the "exclusive
> >> builder"? What about the Italian sourced Italias? Indeed we
> >> have the commonly stated story that Jackson made Hetchins
> >> beginning in 1985 and can be told from Hetchin's Hetchins by
> >> the font and placement of the serial number on the bottom
> >> bracket.
> >>>
> >>> What does anyone know about this?
> >>>
> >>> Tom Rawson
> >>> Oakland, CA
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >> http://www.bikelist.org/
> >>
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>
> --
>
> Steven L. Sheffield
> stevens at veloworks dot com
> veloworks at mac dot com
> aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
> double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash