[CR]Re: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1798 - 19 msgs

(Example: Racing:Roger de Vlaeminck)

From: "Dennis Young" <mail@woodworkingboy.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
In-Reply-To: <20021026040300.4632.56412.Mailman@phred.org>
Subject: [CR]Re: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1798 - 19 msgs
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 05:09:41 -0700

on 10/25/02 21:03, classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org at classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org wrote:
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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link (scott davis)
> 2. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link TRANSLATED (scott davis)
> 3. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link (Roy H. Drinkwater)
> 4. frames Faliero built (was: letter of authenticity) (chasds@mindspring.com)
> 5. Re: Re: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1796 - 21 msgs (Wdgadd@aol.com)
> 6. Cinellis & 531 (Kurt Sperry)
> 7. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link (Jan Heine)
> 8. Re: Re: Brand Loyalty (Jerry & Liz Moos)
> 9. Looking for web images of racers (Mark)
> 10. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link TRANSLATED (Richard M Sachs)
> 11. Re: Info wanted re old B'stone with red jeweled star for head badge.
> (Lawrence Fieman)
> 12. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link TRANSLATED (nelson miller)
> 13. Anyone looking for classic English chainrings and or cranks
> (Wornoutguy@aol.com)
> 14. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link TRANSLATED (scott davis)
> 15. FS: Cinelli steel track stem (PBridge130@aol.com)
> 16. Re: off country tubing (CYCLESTORE@aol.com)
> 17. Re: Raoul's Sterling (CMontgo945@aol.com)
> 18. Drilled-Out Paramount Hubs? (Duane Kennard)
> 19. Re: Letter of authenticity with foto link (Chuck Schmidt)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:34:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Letter of authenticity with foto link
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
>
> I suggest that people examine the letter before
> declaring it a forgery. The letter referred to by Curt
> was hand-written by Alberto Masi on his personal Masi
> stationary. Now why would the son of Falerio Masi
> provide false testimony about his father's
> craftsmanship? Since Alberto is still alive and well,
> its validity can easily be checked at the source.
>
> The letter is at this link:
> http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/vwp?.dir=/Masi+Pista&.dnm=Masi+Letter.j
> pg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t
>
> The name of the owner has been blocked out.
>
> Scott Davis in St. Paul with no pannini
>
> --- scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> --- goodrichbikes <goodrichbikes@netzero.net> wrote:
>>> Of course you're skeptical. You are welcome to
>>> doubt and I'd expect nothing
>>> less. Certainly there's historical precedence of
>>> forgery but this is the
>>> real deal. Rare, I doubt it but valuable,
>>> absolutely.
>>>
>>> Curt Goodrich Bicycles
>>> 607 NE 22nd Ave.
>>> Minneapolis, MN 55418
>>> 612.788.6812
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jan Heine" <heine@mindspring.com>
>>> To: "goodrichbikes" <goodrichbikes@netzero.net>
>>> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:09 PM
>>> Subject: [CR]Letter of authenticity
>>>
>>>
>>>> Curt,
>>>>
>>>> I am doubtful of those letters stating that F.
>>> Masi built a bike.
>>>> Usually, makers don't write letters like that,
>> as
>>> they try to create
>>>> the impression all their bikes are created
>> equal.
>>> That it makes me
>>>> think it is a forgery. I know of one case where
>>> such a letter was
>>>> forged, for a Masi track bike. (Contact me off
>>> list if you'd like
>>>> details, but I think the case may have been
>>> discussed on the list.)
>>>>
>>>> So I would't put any value on such a letter - on
>>> the contrary, I
>>>> would very carefully examine whether the bike is
>>> real. Otherwise, I'd
>>>> prefer craftsmanship over provenance. Exception
>> is
>>> a famous rider -
>>>> if the bike won the Giro d'Italia or
>> something...
>>>>
>>>> Jan
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Classicrendezvous mailing list
>>>> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
>>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------
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>>
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> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:44:38 -0700 (PDT)
> From: scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Letter of authenticity with foto link TRANSLATED
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> Rough translation of the letter:
> September 27, 2002
> This certifies that the yellow and black track frame,
> measuring 57x57 center to center, with a black head
> tube, fork and seat tube pannel, was constructed in
> the year 1954 by Faliero Masi.
> Signed--Alberto Masi
>
> Scott Davis still looking for pannini
> --- scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suggest that people examine the letter before
>> declaring it a forgery. The letter referred to by
>> Curt
>> was hand-written by Alberto Masi on his personal
>> Masi
>> stationary. Now why would the son of Falerio Masi
>> provide false testimony about his father's
>> craftsmanship? Since Alberto is still alive and
>> well,
>> its validity can easily be checked at the source.
>>
>> The letter is at this link:
>>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/vwp?.dir=/Masi+Pista&.dnm=Masi+Letter.j
> pg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t
>>
>> The name of the owner has been blocked out.
>>
>> Scott Davis in St. Paul with no pannini
>>
>> --- scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> --- goodrichbikes <goodrichbikes@netzero.net>
>> wrote:
>>>> Of course you're skeptical. You are welcome to
>>>> doubt and I'd expect nothing
>>>> less. Certainly there's historical precedence
>> of
>>>> forgery but this is the
>>>> real deal. Rare, I doubt it but valuable,
>>>> absolutely.
>>>>
>>>> Curt Goodrich Bicycles
>>>> 607 NE 22nd Ave.
>>>> Minneapolis, MN 55418
>>>> 612.788.6812
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jan Heine" <heine@mindspring.com>
>>>> To: "goodrichbikes" <goodrichbikes@netzero.net>
>>>> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:09 PM
>>>> Subject: [CR]Letter of authenticity
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Curt,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doubtful of those letters stating that F.
>>>> Masi built a bike.
>>>>> Usually, makers don't write letters like that,
>>> as
>>>> they try to create
>>>>> the impression all their bikes are created
>>> equal.
>>>> That it makes me
>>>>> think it is a forgery. I know of one case
>> where
>>>> such a letter was
>>>>> forged, for a Masi track bike. (Contact me off
>>>> list if you'd like
>>>>> details, but I think the case may have been
>>>> discussed on the list.)
>>>>>
>>>>> So I would't put any value on such a letter -
>> on
>>>> the contrary, I
>>>>> would very carefully examine whether the bike
>> is
>>>> real. Otherwise, I'd
>>>>> prefer craftsmanship over provenance.
>> Exception
>>> is
>>>> a famous rider -
>>>>> if the bike won the Giro d'Italia or
>>> something...
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan
>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Classicrendezvous mailing list
>>>>> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> Introducing NetZero Long Distance
>>>> Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
>>>> Sign Up Today! http://www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Classicrendezvous mailing list
>>>> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
>>>
>>>
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>>
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> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:48:26 -0400
> To: classic list <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> From: "Roy H. Drinkwater" <roydrink@ptd.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Letter of authenticity with foto link
>
> Sorry to jump in, but this link works:
> <http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/vwp?.dir=/Masi+Pista&.src=ph&.dnm=Masi
> +Letter.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/lst%3f%26.d
> ir=/Masi%2bPista%26.src=ph%26.view=t>
>
> Scott's message:
>
>> I suggest that people examine the letter before
>> declaring it a forgery. The letter referred to by Curt
>> was hand-written by Alberto Masi on his personal Masi
>> stationary. Now why would the son of Falerio Masi
>> provide false testimony about his father's
>> craftsmanship? Since Alberto is still alive and well,
>> its validity can easily be checked at the source.
>>
>
>
> Roy "no Simpson chain here" Drinkwater
> Lititz, "looking for links in all the wrong places" PA
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:57:34 -0400
> From: <chasds@mindspring.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Reply-To: chasds@mindspring.com
> Subject: [CR]frames Faliero built (was: letter of authenticity)
>
> Others know more, I realize. However, from what I've seen, Faliero didn't
> ever build many frames himself. Even early on he had a shop with helpers who
> built frames to his design. I'm sure he looked things over every day, and
> helped out where necessary...but wasn't he really the front-guy? The man who
> ran the business, got the frames out to the teams and the riders, while others
> actually built them?
>
> That said, my understanding is that whatever frame-building Faliero did do,
> ended by the early 1960s at the very latest (the Vintage Velos Museum on the
> web has a very interesting story about a 50s Masi Speciale, and the
> mise-en-scene of Faliero's shop in the 50s. If that story is accurate, I can
> believe Faliero built some frames...but how many?)...so, Curt, if that's truly
> a Faliero-built frame, it will likely have specific features common to those
> frames, like the long spear-point lugs, perhaps an oiler hole in the bb,
> possibly a 74mm bb shell with the brazed-on spacers, stuff like that.
> Geometry will probably be even slacker than the 60s Specials. Details like
> that would, perhaps, date it with some kind of accuracy; then you'd have a
> better idea if the thing might have been made by Faliero or not.
>
> I'd like to hear from others who know more about this. Did the guy really
> ever build complete frames, start to finish? And if so, when?
>
> Charles Andrews
> SoCal
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: Wdgadd@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:03:53 EDT
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Classicrendezvous digest, Vol 1 #1796 - 21 msgs
> To: langston@interaccess.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
>
> In a message dated 10/25/02 3:49:33 PM, langston@interaccess.com writes:
>
> << Does anyone else have
> an Italian bike built with Reynolds tubing? Or have known of any? >>
>
> My circa 1969 Legnano is built with 531. The decal was on the toptube
> (before it flaked away) which I used to think was kind o' neat. Also, as was
> discussed not long ago, Cinellis were built in 531 into the 60's.
>
> Best regards,
> Wes Gadd
> Unionville,CT
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:10:30 -0400
> From: kurtsperry@netscape.net (Kurt Sperry)
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Cinellis & 531
>
> As I mentioned a couple months back, my '70-'71 Cinelli Speciale Corsa has 531
> tubes and stays.
>
> And I think that Cinelli with the chainguard is quite charming.
>
> Kurt Sperry
> Played tennis in the sun today in Bellingham WA
>
> --
> http://fineartscrimshaw.com
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
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> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:07:56 -0700
> To: scott davis <francopedia@yahoo.com>
> From: Jan Heine <heine@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Letter of authenticity with foto link
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> Scott,
>
> Re-reading my post, I realize that my wording was not good. I meant
> to say that I would suspect such a letter might be a forgery, and be
> careful.
>
> Can you check the link you sent? I can't open that one. Thanks for
> posting it - I'd like to read it before speculating any further.
>
> Jan Heine, Seattle (who apologizes for not signing with my complete
> name in my previous post)
>
>> I suggest that people examine the letter before
>> declaring it a forgery. The letter referred to by Curt
>> was hand-written by Alberto Masi on his personal Masi
>> stationary. Now why would the son of Falerio Masi
>> provide false testimony about his father's
>> craftsmanship? Since Alberto is still alive and well,
>> its validity can easily be checked at the source.
>>
>> The letter is at this link:
>> http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/francopedia/vwp?.dir=/Masi+Pista&.dnm=Masi+Letter.
>> jpg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t
>>
>> The name of the owner has been blocked out.
>>
>> Scott Davis in St. Paul with no pannini
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Jerry & Liz Moos" <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Herb Langston" <langston@interaccess.com>,
> <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Brand Loyalty
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:29:05 -0500
>
> BMW also owns the Rolls Royce name (at least for motor cars) and the RR logo
> per the traditional hood ornament. Volkswagen bought the UK Rolls Royce
> plants and the Bentley name, but it turned out these didn't include the
> Rolls name and logo. This per a recent Wall Street Journal article. Doubt
> we'll see any Rolls Royce badged bicycles ala the Harley-Davidson ones of a
> few years back, though.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Houston, TX
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herb Langston" <langston@interaccess.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:31 PM
> Subject: [CR]Re: Brand Loyalty
>
>
>> Which is a topic that is getting off topic...
>> _______________________________
>> Brandon Ives <monkeylad@mac.com> wrote:
>>> Just to muddy the waters. The New Mini Coopers are made by BMW in
> England.
>>
>> BMW also owns Land Rover.
>>
>> _______________________________
>> The Maaslands <TheMaaslands@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> You should be aware that much of the Harley-Davidson accessories are
> already
>>> made in China and are selling well. Porsche is building the new Cayenne
> in
>>> Eastern Europe, BMW builds engines in Brazil and one of their most
> popular
>>> vehicles, the X5, here in the US... Neither the Cayenne nor the X5 have
>>> German production or culture: in fact both are disdained by most Germans.
>>
>> Yes, the numerous rich urban bikers buy accessories by the boatload, while
>> the Harley faithful bitch about the quality. I have some of the
> accessories
>> and I have had no problems with them, other than really thin chrome.
>>
>> The Germans probably disdain the R1200C "Cruiser" motorcycle, too, which
>> was designed by BMW's California design shop.
>>
>> _______________________________
>> Richard M Sachs <richardsachs@juno.com> wrote:
>>> not to switch gears here...
>>> but i think, (I THINK), that this assumption is the root of all
>>> the disagreement and differing opinions.
>>
>> Please switch gears. I want to get out of this thread.
>>
>> _______________________________
>> Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Herb, not my post actually. A little more care in quoting posts perhaps?
>>
>> I am really sorry. So much mail hit me all of a sudden, and I totally
>> screwed that up. My apologies.
>>
>>

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