Re: [CR]Re: Hidden Inventory/ - Government Regulated?

(Example: Racing:Beryl Burton)

From: "Steve Neago" <questor@cinci.rr.com>
To: "Richard M Sachs" <richardsachs@juno.com>, <CYCLESTORE@aol.com>
Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References: <20021117.183348.-379201.18.richardsachs@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Hidden Inventory/ - Government Regulated?
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:25:20 -0500

Gilbert and Richard, I think you are both missing the point...

As mentioned verbatum, the Ebay User Agreement Sec 5.1 says that the seller must have clear legal title or authorisation to sell from the owner any auction item on ebay.

Richard, you are the OEM manufacturer, so of course you can sell with the promise to later build - its your company and direct transaction with the consumer - no interim middleman supplier required. Ebay is only the listing agent and supposedly not involved in the actual transaction except for possible use of Billpoint or Paypal services.

Companies like CycleSport are different than Richard's because they are generally retailers who purchase from suppliers who purchase from OEMs - a substantially different business relationship than Richard's sole proprietor owned company where he is the OEM. I believe that ebay has a far different set of Company Agreement requirements than the User Agreement.

If any company indeed advertises items on ebay without identifying they do not have possession or the items have to be ordered and the original owner of the stock is unaware, and the company is not a registered business with ebay, companies like this are violating the ebay user agreement and possible State or Federal laws. I am sure most OEMs in a general sense frown on retailers pursuing ebay sales because ebay auctions often undercuts the OEM suggested retail price. This makes it harder for the OEM's to control pricing and distribution of their retail line and creates a "gray market" the OEM cannot control.

US retailers such as Walmart, Kmart, Staples, Office Depot, etc. cannot legally advertise a "sale" or "featured" item in the media when they do not have the item available in stock, else a raincheck must be issued. Otherwise the retailer may be held liable by the government for "bait and switch" illegal marketing tactics. This is probably why ebay says you have to own the auction item or authorisation to sell it...

Regards, Steve Neago
Cincinnati, OH


----- Original Message -----
From: Richard M Sachs
To: CYCLESTORE@aol.com
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Hidden Inventory



> great post, gilbert.
> come to think of it, in my line of work, i almost
> ALWAYS sell something i do not have. the client
> is investing in my time spent at some later date. i
> see a similarity to the ebay seller that was referenced
> at the genesis of this thread.
> e-RICHIE
> Richard Sachs Cycles
> No.9, North Main Street
> Chester, CT 06412 USA
> http://www.richardsachs.com
> Tel. 860.526.2059
>
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:45:44 EST CYCLESTORE@aol.com writes:
> > Hello Jan, Steve and all,
> >
> > Selling inventory you don't have.
> > I think we would be suprised how many times some of the big mail
> > order houses
> > do this and it seems almost all manufacturers do this as a general
> > course of
> > business everyday.
> >
> > Most listee's would be suprised to learn that I have seen lots of
> > the big
> > bicycle mail houses selling things in this fashion on a day to day
> > basis and
> > I think this should actually be considered normal procedure and the
> > large
> > ticket in stock (ON THEIR PREMISES) items should be considered
> > exceptions in
> > many cases.
> >
> > I see nothing inherently wrong with selling something not in your
> > personal
> > inventory as long as your supply is reliable and delivery somewhat
> > predictable. The problems start when these two elements are
> > lacking.
> >
> > I import specialty bicycles from Europe regularly. It is very
> > expensive with
> > lots of overt and hidden up front costs. All my inventory is heavily
> >
> > customized for me or my customers. While I stock what I can I am
> > actively
> > selling on a daily basis. The factories I deal with have no surplus
> > stock.
> > It's a you buy, we will build arrangement. To keep costs down,
> > quickens
> > delivery and get the best price I pay for most of my product in
> > advance and
> > the saving are passed along to the ultimate owner. I have several
> > credit
> > lines with the manufacturers and banks but do not rely on them very
> > much as
> > bank charges on their end increases their cost (and mine and my
> > customers
> > prices) and bank charges on my end are very erosive to my puny
> > bottom line.
> >
> > Do I sell what I do not have? Every day, Do I sell what I can
> > deliver? Every
> > day. D0 you pay in advance when you deal with a large mail-order
> > concern that
> > has not their advertised inventory? Most certainly sometimes, do you
> > know
> > that before or after the transaction, rarely. Many seem to be less
> > than
> > willing for an accurate disclosure.
> >
> > I recently received a very limitedly available (1 in the USA)
> > frameset from a
> > major mail order concern in the bicycle industry that stated it was
> > in their
> > warehouse ready to ship. They ship in stock parts overnight if
> > needed so how
> > suprised were we when an hour after the customer bought the frame
> > (not
> > through us but in our store on our phone), the rare item disappeared
> > from
> > inventory at the importers. Shipping departure time for the in stock
> > frame
> > next day departure started 6 days later and arrived 11 days after
> > the
> > transaction began. It was in a factory sealed box so no time delay
> > in prep
> > before shipping was performed. I call back was explained away as
> > processing
> > time.
> >
> > Deliberate misrepresentation is another matter; full disclosure
> > however,
> > where does it start and where does it end. I've had some customers
> > demand I
> > chase all over gods green earth for something obscure (none of the
> > Cr's) and
> > demand I supply everything from my mother's maiden name to my tax
> > returns
> > before they would want to transact business over the phone. All this
> > and they
> > will not supply a last name or phone number to me to even contact
> > them or
> > file the request, "I'll call back", they say. I tell em don't
> > bother, I mean
> > unless there is some legitimate concern I don't have time for
> > foolishness. At
> > our shop we have a constant backlog of real business and people that
> > transact
> > business in a business like fashion, and supply real name, address
> > and phone
> > numbers (personal information we do not sell or share).
> >
> >
> > Endo rant!
> >
> >
> > Gilbert Anderson
> >
> > The North Road Bicycle Company ( lots of stock, sometimes on hand )
> > your bicycle outfitter
> > 519 W. North St.
> > Raleigh, NC 27603
> > USA
> > ph toll free in USA :800/321-5511
> > Local ph: 919/828-8999
> > E-Mail: cyclestore@aol.com
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/17/02 10:25:39 AM,
> > classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org writes:
> >
> > << Message: 8
> >
> > From: "Steve Neago" <questor@cinci.rr.com>
> >
> > To: "Jan Heine" <heine@mindspring.com>,
> >
> > <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Selling inventory that isn't - unethical ebay
> > brokers/sellers
> >
> > Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:20:13 -0500
> >
> >
> > <<Selling inventory that isn't: As long as the seller makes it
> > clear
> >
> > that this is the case, I don't have a problem with it.>>
> >
> >
> > I believe that ebay does have a problem with broker/seller auctions
> > based on
> >
> > speculation where the broker does not have legal title nor
> > authorization to
> >
> > put the item up for auction. I also view speculation auctions as
> > deceptive
> >
> > to the potential buyer because they make available the bidders ebay
> > name and
> >
> > possibly address contact info when they bid on an item that may not
> > really
> >
> > available. This provides the unethical broker/seller with a
> > marketing
> >
> > contact list without selling the item and without paying full ebay
> > fees for
> >
> > future sales based on their names obtained through ebay.
> >
> >
> > There are unethical sellers who place a highly desired auction item
> > on ebay,
> >
> > set an extremely high reserve price that is not disclosed and likely
> > not
> >
> > met, then troll for ebay bidder names to add to their third party
> > sales mail
> >
> > list as the auction progresses. Other unethical sellers also use
> > this high
> >
> > reserve amount method to avoid ebay auction fees on a high-bidder
> > below
> >
> > reserve auction by contacting the bidders after the auction has
> > ended and
> >
> > offering to sell the original or similar items outside of ebay to
> > avoid ebay
> >
> > fees. Buyers who choose to go this route risk possible deception
> > with no
> >
> > recourse for help from ebay, limited as it may be, because the
> > transaction
> >
> > was completed outside of ebay.
> >
> >
> > The following is taken from the current ebay user agreement...
> >
> >
> > Ebay Listing and Selling.
> >
> > 5.1 Listing Description. You must be legally able to sell the
> > item(s) you
> >
> > list for sale on our site. You must describe your item and all terms
> > of sale
> >
> > on the listing page of our site. Your listings may only include
> > text
> >
> > descriptions, graphics, pictures and other content relevant to the
> > sale of
> >
> > that item.
> >
> >
> > Regards, Steve Neago
> >
> > "Getting use to cold weather in Cincinnati, OH"
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Jan Heine" <heine@mindspring.com>
> >
> > To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> >
> > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 2:24 PM
> >
> > Subject: [CR]Selling inventory that isn't
> >
> >
> >
> > Selling inventory that isn't: As long as the seller makes it clear
> >
> > that this is the case, I don't have a problem with it. When I go to
> > a
> >
> > bike shop to buy something, they often special-order it.
> >
> >
> > If somebody finds a stash of stuff, but is afraid to buy because
> > they
> >
> > don't know what the market value is, I don't mind if they propose
> > the
> >
> > items, as long as they say "I think I can get this. Are you
> >
> > insterested?" Of course, publicly advertising something for sale
> > that
> >
> > you don't own is a different story.
> >
> > >>