Michael,
Sorry, can't see myself getting too involved with this one. Reason being that there really are WAY too many factors involved in this topic which ultimately comes down to wheather each one of us individually likes this or that and why in any given bike. Personal taste, riding style, road conditions and hundreds of other factors contribute to our enjoyment or not of a perticular bike.
I will say two things. Something matters. In fact EVERYTHING matters; but most probably are insignificant as an individual factors, but when combined with a boatload of others things add up to something or maybe cancell each other out. I doubt if anything conclusive will result from this discussion and yet I'm compelled to say that anyone intending to build quality frames should select tried and true high quality materials and do their best to handle and design around said materials to the best of their ability. Even in the hands of a moderately skilled builder, good materials and sound construction and design perameters will yeild a bike that should meet the needs of the owner for at least their lifetime. If this does not happen the framebuilder has at least partially failed to deliver what the materials are capable of. Overthinking the tube thing might be as bad as not considering it at all. If one buys a bike off the shelf you will have to take what you get; and even then that is quite suffeccient for most peoples needs.
Size does matter; there, I've said it. Oops, wrong conversation? Without getting into all of the quagmire already existing; I have an approach that works for me. I have come up with this over the past 30 years purely from experience so don't ask for any explaination of this policy. Besides, it's very straightforward. When it comes to tubing selections (which I've always had a little fetish for) I design the frame to be no heavier than neccessary. If anyone wants to see an example of the smashed plastic beer cup (a la our first night at Le Cirque as we drank at Chumleys') just come into my shop and start asking how much my frames weight. Once I regain my composure I calmly state "they're no heavier than absolutely neccessary for me to build the bike you request and to guareentee this for the rest of my life". If the questions persist then I push the auto-eject button and the offender is shot out thru the roof of my place never to be seen again. I always have a "personal stash" of various tubes that I can use for whatever special occassions arrise. Often the exotic stuff ends up in my bikes because some of it is not suitable to lifetime use under normal conditions. The Record stays (BTW, Brian B pointed out my missplaced decimal point yesterday, it's .5mm) in the Masi replica are an example. It would be a shame to let this stuff just sit and rot when all it takes is to find the right place to use it.
Not sure what, it anything, I just said that would be of any use to this conversation. Honestly what strikes me most about these kinds of debates is that regardless of which side of the issue one is on at any given time, I still have a tremendous amount of respect for everyone and I am grateful to be part of this group. Much of what is said is "opinion" and Richard in particular seeks to make that known as often as he can because like someone mentioned a while back these questions are nearly as old as the bicycle itself and most likely will never be resolved to everyones satisfaction. I do have my personal opinions on certain aspects of this topic but I'm not going to discuss them on the list; I save that sort of conversation for beerhalls who serve in plastic cups.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
Sometimes it pays to just sit and watch.
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> Glad your entertained - but please don't hold off the urge to jump in
> forever - this idea that tubing and gauge doesn't matter is lunacy -
> something I know we've discussed in the past. I'm kinda getting a bit
> hammered here so any help would be appreciated.
>
> Mike Kone - "going riding on my super nice Baylis that should have been
> built with all Columbus SP cause weight adds durability and the ride would
> be the same after all."
>
> At 08:48 AM 6/2/02 -0700, Brian Baylis wrote:
> >Michael,
> >
> >I've really enjoyed sitting on the sidelines for this discussion. I
> >can't say I've read all of it but what I have read from every
> >contributor has been informative and interesting in some way or another.
> >
> >I'm not going to join in at this point but it seems that you guys have
> >done a good job of investigating the subtle points of frames and
> >materials and have (or are about to, aren't you?) conclude that there is
> >a lot more to frames than stiffness.
> >
> >Personally I'm quite fond of mixing tubes to get exactly what I want out
> >of a bike. As we speak, a replica of an early sixties Masi Special track
> >bike is under construction (full chrome frame no less!) which I have
> >incorperated Reynolds 531 standard gauge main tubes and Columbus RECORD
> >forks and stays (those are .05mm thick). This is a track pursuit style
> >frame 51cm c-t. Ordinarily one would not chrome such tubing (the record
> >stuff) but since I'm hand sanding and polishing it there is not the
> >heavy metal removal nor the heat generated by traditional chrome shop
> >methods. This bike is turning out looking like a piece of fine jewelery.
> >Furthermore, I'm sure it will flex just right for it's purpose.
> >
> >Brian Baylis
> >La Mesa, CA
> >How long does it take for fingers to grow back??
> >>
> >> Acutally this analysis is not correct - when the frame springs back all the
> >> energy that went to move the frame one way moves it back the other - and
> >> that movement is augmenting the pedal stroke - energy can't be wasted - it
> >> has to be conserved (i.e go somewhere and steel just doesn't dissapate a
> >> quanifiable amount of energy as heat from what I understand). Again, we do
> >> "waste energy" from extra body movement, but a frame cannot absorb energy
> >> in any relevent extent.
> >>
> >> Many of the best riding quickest feeling bikes are very flexible - again,
> >> it is having the right flex that is important.
> >>
> >> Mike Kone in Boulder CO
> >>
> >> At 12:14 AM 6/2/02 EDT, NortonMarg@aol.com wrote:
> >> >In a message dated 6/1/02 10:46:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >> >GandJFahey@aol.com writes:
> >> >
> >> ><< spring helps a bike accelerate - but so does
> >> > stiffness perhaps - confused? Yes - it is confusing. Its all about the
> >> > right balance for each rider. Need spring but not too much.
> >> >
> >> > Doesn't it take at least as much energy to "put the spring into the tube"
> >> as
> >> > the amount of spring that is returned? In other words, there's no free
> >> >lunch.
> >> > No mystic source of energy that automatically bends the tubes into a
> >> tensed
> >> > spring position, I think you have to supply the energy even if it
> springs
> >> > back. ?? >>
> >> >
> >> >Energy spent bending the frame is energy not spent making the wheels go
> >> >around. When the frame springs back, none of that energy goes into making
> >> the
> >> >wheels go around either. Frames that are too flexy "waste" energy. Stiffer
> >> >frames are more efficient. If they're too stiff they feel "dead" and
> aren't
> >> >really comfortable to ride. A frame is a spring. No spring maker uses
> HiTen,
> >> >they use spring steel because it's better.
> >> >Stevan Thomas
> >> >Alameda, CA