Greg and the gang,
There will never be an end to the debate over Mario and what he built. The limited number is probably the most significant factor in the unrealistic prices relative to the "actual" quality of the frames. Those who seek the highest prices for these items are within their rights to extract as much money as possible out of the few Confente frames that exist. The only people truely qualified to judge the quality of any other frames are framebuilders. We see and know what is involved in making the end result; and know and understand what it takes to do it. The rest of you must go on what you see (mainly the painted finished frame and nothing else), your emotions based on what you think you know about the builder and framebuilding, what you imagine it takes, and what others might have to say about it. The fact is, most people have to go on emotion/visual imput with very little knowledge of what is really being presented.
Every time I make that statement there is someone who says "who the hell do you think you are and what the f*** do you know". Spare me. Framebuilding is not magic, takes moderate skill(about like brain surgery), and I've paid my dues for nearly 30 years. Now if there's another framebuilder who would like to take exception to what I say then I'm all ears. I'm not pulling rank on non-builders; but the fact is I know more about it than you do. Put me in your job and I'm the one who knows nothing. Since the topic is frames I feel I can speak with authority. I do my best to present what I know and back it up with facts and explainations as required. If I come off as an "elitist snob" I'm sorry, it's not my intention. Let's move on.
I just had a thought that might shed a little light on the subject of value. With any given frame there are two factors. The first is the actual quality of construction, choice of materials, design, style, finish, etc. In other words tangable elements that any experienced and knowledgable framebuilder can point out and explain and give relative credit to compared to other frames of "similar intention". A certain amount of "style" is personal opinion but there are also traditional accepted elements of design that can be considered "more refined" than something less so. You can't compare apples and oranges. A Confente is a custom handmade frame. You can't compare a Schwinn Paramount to it to make a fair comparison. Other custom handmade frames should be the benchmark.
The second factor is "mystique", "mojo", emotion, hype, and all other "marketing" oriented factors that each frame has or has not. I guarentee there are hundreds of frames built to Marios' ability and above that rate zero on the "I have to have one" factor. It's just the way the world is. If all frames were purchased stricly on the quality of what's there and nothing else and the price was relative to that, Mario would not make the top ten with absolute certainty.
So where does this leave us? Well, right where we are. What is involved is a bike whose "mojo" far outweights its actual relative worth as a bike frame. That's what collecting is all about. 100 people want one and only two are available it's obvious what will happen. If Mario were still building frames this would not be happening now. As a matter of fact I suspect Mario would be following the "trends" and the market and going with the industry and all of its gyrations because as is obvious, he was headed in the direction of streamlining frame construction and amongst the first to abandon the handmade approach in favor of increased production. One can't say that isn't talent; it most certainly is. Ernesto Colnago is the KING of such "trends for the purpose of increased profits, marketed as improvements" in the bicycle industry. For those of you who think that full chrome forks and straight fork blades are "improvements" you missed the boat (because you're not a framebuilder); they are strictly concepts that allowed Colnago to minimize the number of forks of proper length and color to mate to frames, and a way to simplify the building and aligning of forks. I'm reasonably certain the letter from Colnago to Mario that I recently examined was an attempt from Colnago to "buy off" one of his possible future competators (Mario) knowing that Mario was one of the best in Italy as a framebuilder and also was up on the trends that the industry in Italy was about to embark upon. Mario didn't spearhead investment cast lugs; he just knew what was on the horizion in Italy before we did here in the states. There's more to this but not time right now to address all of it.
Back to the point. If we were to assign an actual value of any given frame based on its actual merits and recorded them on a list. And then went back and assigned "mojo factor" to the same frames, we would probably see something like this. Some real crappy frames in terms of construction (the ride and so on we can leave out for the moment since a lot of "crappily" built frames ride fine, many of them much better than a Confente for example) with low points for quality of construction and finish would rate rather high in Mojo. Why? Well the best example I can think of is the Bob Jackson. The article in Playboy many years ago featured a Jackson as I recall and suddenly these frames were highly respected and sought after. Still some of this remains. The bike looked nice in the photos and gushing text was no doubt included; but the fact is as a framebuilder of about 30 years now I can say that few bikes rated that high in Mojo are as poorly built. No doubt the people who have Jacksons they love will take exception. I'm seperating the emotion from the facts. Fact is they are crude in so many ways but they work fine, so there.
The Confente is the other obvious imbalance. The upside is that Confente frames are nicely made (although brass brazed) and stylish but the fact is that there are a large number of frames whose quality are equal or superior in construction and finish. Mario used what I call "obsolete" frame geometry in some respects and hasn't changed the world by comming up with "magic frame geometry". So what's new? Nothing. It's a nice handmade bike that exists in numbers so small that this imbalance has occured.
So what Richard Rose said is pretty much it. A lot more bike can be had for a lot less money if you can do without claiming "I own one of only 135 frames built". How much is it worth to you? Like Chuck said, it's the buyer who makes that determination. I think the Japanese are more on track. Even though there are thousands of Rene Herse frames, they have recognized the totality of the design and construction of these bikes and have assigned value to them based on that. The only mojo that comes with a Rene Herse is that some of them fetch high prices on account of the completeness of the bike as a concept.
One and a half hours later.........
I was interupted during writing this by a customer who came over to pick up an early Italian Masi GC I just painted. We got to talking about two things; the concept of "constructor" and the various quality of many of these "name" collectable frames. Because at this time there are 3 Rene Herses, an early Colnago(1970), a few Baylises, a Flying Scot, 4 Hetchins, 5 Cinellis, and 10 Masis (ranging from 1962 to 1978, plus several others to compare we took to looking at construction details of all of these frames in a side to side comparison. What we saw was that all of these bikes are various degrees of OK but none are worth writing home about. Pretty much as you would expect. Looking at those bikes compared to my work and that of many of my contempories makes it obvious that what we're doing is in fact quite in a different catagory. No real surprise there really. So what Dale just said is exactly true. The craftsmanship of modern American builders is above that of "the early Masters" so to speak. Where Mario fits in is another question. To be perfectly honest, Marios' work is considerably more refined than that of his predecessors; but isn't at the same level as our current American builders. If one was going to plot a course as to where Mario would be now I have to say that he would probably be right in the middle of the "modern trends" in the industry as opposed to holding out and preserving the "craft" that we as classisists know and love. Mario was always looking ahead and wanted to be on the forefront of the developments in the industry. His enthuesiam for investment cast lugs (which I won't touch anymore) leads me to believe he wasn't so much in love with the craft as making more bikes for "famous" people. I've gotten from several persons that who owned the bikes was more important than the bike itself. I saw a letter sent back from President Carter from the White House thanking him for the generous offer and the "spirit in which it was offered" but declining to accept Confete bicycles as gifts. This is typical Italian behavior but it doesn't wash over here. You can give the Pope a Campy 50th Anniv. group or a Conlago bicycle and have your picture taken and make a poster out of it; but not in the United States. That is one of the typical advertising fallacies; the President has one, Clint Eastwood has one (did he order it or was it given to him, anyone know for sure?), a big giant basketball player has one, etc.
Like Dale said it would be interesting for a group of knowledgable (read framebuilders) people to get together with massive quantities of exotic frames and sort of rate the frames based only on the quality of the work and design of the bike. I got a good start this afternoon as I pointed out lots of details of construction to someone who knows bikes as young a racer, to bike mechanic, to collector/rider over most of his life. He had no idea there were so many minute details that one could inspected for quality and execution. My talk last year at Velo Rendezvous was centered around this topic. My presentation this year will probably revolve around the concept of "Replica VS. Counterfiet" and will include lots of these details. Perhaps one thing we as a group might undertake at this years Velo Rendezvous would be one of these open air side by side comparisons of a number of "big name" frames. I promise to open lots of eyes if it takes place.
So the bottom line as to why Confente frames sometimes get more money than they're "actually" worth is because there are so few. I've also noticed that the most vocal persons regarding their value are those who own them or have something to gain from selling them. Not a one is a framebuilder. All of them focus on everything except the actual explaination of what the frame really is. You're buying 60% mojo and 40% bike. Again that's the way it is in the world. It will not change.
To seperate the "man" from the "frame" is an interesting way of looking at it. I knew Mario just like the rest of those who claim to. I have talked with several others who spent time with Mario at various times and the same impression come from all of them. We all thought highly of Mario. He was talented just like every other human being. He made several poor choices as to with whom and how to go about making world class frames. Mario is not without responsibility during all of the twists and turns of his life. His personal goals drove him in some directions that ended up being counterproductive. To blame everyone else he was involved with for his troubles and his shortened life is short sighted and clearly not true. Playing on this sympathy to sell his frames is an injustice to all involved, including Mario. Mario died young because he had a bad heart. He knew it; he told us that while we were working at Masi. He told the same thing to a close friend of his many years ago, that the doctors told him he could no longer race on account of it. This is a fact. Mario was human just like the rest of us. Between the awsome ability to focus there were temper tantrums and fits of frustration and depression. Yes, caused by his circumstances; which he himself entered into. Possibly blinded by his own desperate need to build the best frames in the world and sell them to the stars. But either way, it ends up as "Mojo" to those who are predesposed to seeing that instead of his frames. Go figure.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA For anyone who wants to know the sources of my information, know this. I have been researching the events of Mario and Masi and all of the tenticles for quite some time now and not only have personal first hand knowledge of much of it, but also have spoken with well over a dozen persons closely and personally involved in the whole saga. There are still more for me to talk to, but one thing is common to all. Everyone had respect for Mario and his ability. Some of them idolize him. Most feel that he was no different than the rest of us other than he was driven to do things that weren't always the best course. Most of that had to do with him not being a US citizen. He wanted to be here really bad. He had enough sense to escape Italy where the devil (E. Colnago) wanted to buy his soul; but jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire by having to work for "money men" in order to stay here. By the time he had a solution it was too late. Mario believed that the US was the land of opportunity with all his heart; problem is there is no free ride just because you're a great framebuilder. Again, that's the way the world is.