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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. de rosas (LouDeeter@aol.com)
> 2. 50th Anniversary Hubset for sale (LouDeeter@aol.com)
> 3. Re: La La Land (GPVB1@cs.com)
> 4. Ross Shafer before salsa (jimmycue@att.net)
> 5. Re: de rosas (Jay Van De Velde)
> 6. Re: Frame builders (Fred Rafael Rednor)
> 7. Welcome to Nor. Cal., Phil (Janis Johnson)
> 8. Re: Klein Ad (LouDeeter@aol.com)
> 9. Re: Welcome to Nor. Cal., Phil (Philcycles@aol.com)
> 10. RE: Ross Shafer before salsa (Mark Bulgier)
> 11. Colnago's cooked tubes (RE: [CR]de rosas) (Brandon Ives)
> 12. R: [CR]Bob Jackson (The Maaslands)
> 13. Confente Rear Derailleur Routing (LouDeeter@aol.com)
> 14. Mavic rim question (Tom Hayes)
> 15. I: [CR]de rosas (The Maaslands)
> 16. interesting fiamme rim (C. Andrews)
> 17. RE: de rosas (Mark Bulgier)
> 18. Re: interesting fiamme rim (NortonMarg@aol.com)
> 19. Anyone know Colby Olds? (NortonMarg@aol.com)
> 20. RE: Mavic rim question (Mark)
> 21. Re: Ross Shafer before salsa (Terence Shaw)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: LouDeeter@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:50:38 EDT
> Subject: [CR]de rosas
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> I include myself among the people who say that "nothing rides like a Derosa".
> I'm sure there are some salient reasons that is the case, but if it is just
> design, then why so few copycats? Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: LouDeeter@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:01:51 EDT
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]50th Anniversary Hubset for sale
>
> I sold some rims off a 50th wheelset and before I build them with another set
> of rims, I'm offering the hubset with skewers to the list for $140 shipped,
> 36 hole. Used, but good condition. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: GPVB1@cs.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:16:27 EDT
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Re: La La Land
>
> e_chuck wrote (just a tad sarcastically):
>
> > We are gonna miss you, stuck as we are in this acrid atmosphered,
> > concrete covered, palm tree lined, wretched hellhole.
> >
> >
>
> Yep, that pretty much describes LA to a "T"..... ;-)
>
> Greg "glad sometimes to be from neither coast" Parker
> A2 MI USA
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: jimmycue@att.net
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:26:43 +0000
> Subject: [CR]Ross Shafer before salsa
>
> Before Ross Shafer started salsa cycles he built frames
> under what name and i here he built beautiful lugged and
> even better fillet brazed bikes but i have never seen
> one anybody have info on his early work?
> Jimmy Katynski Madison hts mi.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> To: "C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:36:49 -0700
> From: "Jay Van De Velde" <jaysports@lycos.com>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Reply-To: jaysports@lycos.com
> Subject: Re: [CR]de rosas
> Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80)
>
> In 1978 I bought a used early '70s De Rosa.It was a beautiful red and white bike with the heart shaped cut outs expertly contrast painted, nearly mint condition. I also had a same vintage Italian Masi (at the time I thought the bikes made in California were not "true" Masis). I road the Masi often and raced with it, but when I wanted to ride something special, where the quality of the ride itself mattered more than speed or distance covered, I always went for the De Rosa. Save the PX10 for long training rides in less than ideal conditions, the Masi for races and group rides. For me,it was the De Rosa that had the magic/mystique/mojo. After my lulu of a bike crash in '82(on a PX10),I sold the DeRosa along with the Masi to a guy who had been pestering me for 2 years to sell it to him. I think about that bike often. The buyer was a good caretaker of bikes, a collector with vision, so I know it's still out there, probably in as good condition as when I sold it to him for $500. !
> I'v
> e been searching for years to replace that bike, chances are slim, but I'm hopeful.
> Jay Van De Velde
> Seal Beach,CA
>
INTRO time as I have been lurking for a couple of weeks here. I grew up in the business and did a stint as a outside rep for an old company. So my time span is old RECORD to original DURA ACE (I may have sold the first set of sidepulls..I think to DON MILBERGERs bike shop in CONCORD) Because I left the business before INDEXING etc I am caught in a bit of a time warp, I enjoy nice bikes and am a RETRO guy by nature, SUN AMs I ride with a group of guys who ride the kinds of bikes you all hate (TI and CARBON), but I am there with my old CINELLI SC they do give me a hard time about my heavy bike (but when you weigh 203lbs a couple of pounds off the bike I dont think matters) I have owned many nice bikes including a SPENCE WOLF CINELLI (bought 1967 stolen 1980) which I replaced with a nice 2nd hand CINELLI that I ride today. My suggestion for a new thread is bikes I sold for a ridiculous amount (not HIGH but LOW) I had an ORIGINAL BIANCHI TEAM ISSUE which I think I sold for $150 while I was in school, at the time I had 2 other bikes and no room, its laughable now as I would really like to find that bike(but of course at the old price tag) I will chime in from time to time but really enjoy the posts........its an impressive group. BOB FREITAS MILL VALLEY,CA pre 48 PARAMOUNT TRACK CINELLI SC JACK TAYLOR HOLDSWORTH MERCIAN FOLLIS TANDEM and a few others I wont mention here
SUNDAY 8AM at the GGBRIDGE......................
>
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 12:02:00
> C. Andrews wrote:
> >I would put an early de rosa right at the top of my list at
> >this point. the early/mid 70s frames are as tasty, or
> >tastier, than anything else out there, then, or now. And
> >they ride to die for. Them low bb shells ya know.
> >
> >Problem is, there was very little importation of De Rosas
> >until the 80s, so finding an early 70s De Rosa (let alone a
> >60s frame--talk about the holy grail!), is not unlike trying
> >to find a needle in a haystack...very, very difficult.
> >Masis and Colnagos were easier to see and buy..hence their
> >popularity with us over-the-hill geezers...but I'd love an
> >early 70s de rosa, and every single serious vintage hound I
> >know around here would like to have one too..
> >
> >The De Rosas that made it to this country in any quantity
> >(far as I can tell) are 80s frames and use cast lugs. Very
> >nice. But not as nice as the 70s iron.
> >
> >Charles "70s de rosa? Dream on!" Andrews
> >So Cal
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Win a first-class trip to New Orleans and vacation Elvis Style!.
> Enter NOW!
> http://r.lycos.com/
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Fred Rafael Rednor <fred_rednor@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: fred_rednor@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [CR]Frame builders
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> > ...I know of builders who had an employee or three
> > and went back to single person-it was just too
> > expensive in both money and time. There is no good
> > answer...
> When I visited Francisco Cuevas's shop during the winter of
> 1983-1984, there was another fellow there who was working as
> an apprentice. (Not his son, who was working there as a
> painter at the time.) My recollection is that he was paying
> Cuevas for his tutelage. He was a retired police officer or
> fireman, so he had the time and funds to finance this sort
> of educational experience.
> Could this kind of arrangement work? (This assumes, of
> course, that there are other people around who are willing to
> pay for this type of educational experience.) Or is it still
> too much of a burden for a small operation?
> Regards,
> Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: "Janis Johnson" <picabo58@earthlink.net>
> To: <Philcycles@aol.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:50:32 -0700
> Subject: [CR]Welcome to Nor. Cal., Phil
>
> Hey Phil!
> You're headed back up our way? Awesome! Give us a call sometime. We can go
> for a ride.
> On a different note: PJ and I just returned from the Silicon Valley Vintage
> Ride. Nice hot morning, with hundreds of other cyclists out to enjoy the
> lovely summer weather. In attendance on our ride were: CR Listmembers Dave
> Martinez, Brad Stockwell, Felix Chiu, and Jim Narlesky, also, Jim's friend
> Gary, as well as Johnson & Johnson.
> The theme for the day was "Americana" so anything remotely American was
> encouraged. I forgot to take notes of what everyone was riding, but I do
> remember a couple of the bikes. Dave was riding his 1960 Legnano; Brad rode
> his Masi; Peter was on his 1962 Legnano; I rode a 1982 Peter Johnson
> lugless, painted bright orange; and Felix was riding his "500th Anniversary
> of Columbus discovering America" Botecchia (which I guess came out in 1992).
> It was a fun ride and the lunch stop at the Plantation Deli was nice.
> On another completely different note: Peter was looking through a copy of
> the International Cycle Guide, published by the Tantivy Press, London, 1981,
> on page 277, in the section titled "Framebuilders", there is a photo of our
> very own bushy-headed Brian Baylis pictured with Michael Howard, working
> together on a frame at Medici Bicycles. CLASSIC!
> Page 35 has the full page color photo ad for Klein Bicycles, featuring that
> big tall Farrah Fawcett-haired girl posing with a 61cm Klein Heavy Duty Team
> Super with Campagnolo Super Record, complete for $3,489.00. In "today's
> dollars", with inflation, that would be about $6,000!
> Have a great weekend everyone.
> Jan Johnson
> Portola Valley, CA
> (where the air is clean and everyone rides a bicycle)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: LouDeeter@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:12:00 EDT
> Subject: Re: [CR]Klein Ad
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> In a message dated 6/29/2002 6:53:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jan Johnson,
> alias picabo58@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > has the full page color photo ad for Klein Bicycles, featuring that
> > big tall Farrah Fawcett-haired girl posing
>
> Now, that was Mojo, or should I say Kahunas. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> From: Philcycles@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:15:31 EDT
> Subject: Re: [CR]Welcome to Nor. Cal., Phil
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> Well, since it seems to be of general interest here is the explanation. I'm
> going to the Bay Area, where I was born and raised, to help one of my oldest
> friends build a new recording studio. My family was/is (different branch) in
> the construction business and I've been building things out of wood and metal
> all my life. I'm not moving back there, sad to say, just going up a week or
> so at a time.
> And, also sad to say, the Saab is full of carpentry tools so no bike, not
> that I'll have the time for a ride-lots of work to do.
> Phil Brown
> In sunny NoHo, Ca looking forward to a foggy week in SF.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: Mark Bulgier <mark@bulgier.net>
> To: "'jimmycue@att.net'" <jimmycue@att.net>,
> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: RE: [CR]Ross Shafer before salsa
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:45:01 -0700
>
> I know he worked at Santana some time after I did, maybe '78-79?
>
> Mark Bulgier
> Seattle, Wa
> USA
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:50:29 -0700
> To: Mark Bulgier <mark@bulgier.net>, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> From: Brandon Ives <monkeylad@mac.com>
> Subject: Colnago's cooked tubes (RE: [CR]de rosas)
>
> At 1:49 PM -0700 6/29/02, Mark Bulgier wrote:
> >Joints to be brazed are heated by fixed torches and come to the
> >human already hot, probably too hot
> >. . . . (SNIP). . . .
> >The video can be downloaded from
> >http://bulgier.net/vids/colnago.mpeg
>
> Thanks for the video, quite interesting and quite scary. I watched
> the video and when the BB assembly came out of the carousel it looked
> a little too hot. I finished the video and the fork looked a little
> cooked too. I looked at it again and paused it as the BB came out of
> the flame, yep that puppy is yellow where the center of the flame was
> and bright orange everywhere else. I was taught that that was way
> too hot and by looking at the chart on p.29 of Talbot's book it says
> that that would place it in the 1700 to 1800 degrees fahrenheit which
> is cooked by Columbus's standards. Have I just been drinking too
> much beer in the sun or are the tubes on that Colnago cooked?
> ciao,
> Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
> enjoying the non-el lay weather in
> Santa Barbara, Calif
>
> PS: I've seen plenty of over heated frames come out "just fine" so
> this isn't a comment on the "quality" of Colnago, but just on the
> corners that are cut in sake of production. I still want an early
> Master.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:57:09 -0500
> From: The Maaslands <TheMaaslands@comcast.net>
> Subject: R: [CR]Bob Jackson
> To: Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>
> Nanni Pinarello is the builder of the Italian North East that I mentioned in
> one of my posts. He is a good friend (he is now well into his 70's, perhaps
> even 80's) and an incredibly nice man. I respect him for who he is and who
> he once was. He is a true mover in the Italian bicycle community and once
> offered me a job. I can't respect his son Fausto, who now runs the show
> quite as much as I feel that he has lost a bit of the focus his father had.
> Nanni is not actively involved in the day to day work of the framebuilding
> shop, he prefers to spend his time with his friends and customers (one and
> the same group of people in his eyes) in his retail sporting good shop where
> they sell more non-cycling goods than cycling goods. Pinarello continues to
> make many lugged frames but has mainly moved on to aluminum and other
> materials like all of the other big builders. One of my best friends from
> the time I lived in Treviso worked for many years in the Pinarello
> frameshop. Pinarello sells about 15K frames per year of high-end stuff and
> in the province of Treviso sells at least as many low-end city bikes. They
> are effectively a small regional version of Peugeot or Bianchi. They have
> something for everybody in the province of Treviso (they however only export
> the top-of-the-line frames), including some bikes that are the closest
> approximation you will find of a KMart bike in Italy.
>
> Colnago on the other hand makes two types of high-end bikes only: those
> masterful pieces of work that are supplied to the pro teams, sponsored
> riders and celebrities and then those that are sold to the public. These
> frames meant for the consumers are cookie cutter frames that do not take
> into account the individual riders needs. Yes, they have nicely designed
> angles and therefore handle comparatively well. Their finish is, as Brian
> described, not superior. I feel they can best be compared to mass-produced
> high-end bikes from Fuji, Miyata, Specialized and others who all have better
> finish and equal ride. Colnago is however idolized and continues to be
> spoken of in the same way as Confente, Baylis, Sachs and other more focused
> framebuilders. This is why I feel that his frames are highly over-priced for
> what they offer. Like you say, his past was illustrous, as evidenced by the
> Mexico bike and many others, but that is all from a bygone era. Just look
> who Merckx turned to when he set up his own production: De Rosa.
>
> I will keep to my De Rosa's if I need something from Italy, or perhaps a
> Passoni if I can come up with the money.
>
> Steven Maasland
> Moorestown, NJ
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jerry & Liz Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> To: The Maaslands <TheMaaslands@comcast.net>; Classic Rendezvous
> <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Bob Jackson
>
> > I think snake-oil-vendor is a bit harsh for Ernesto Colnago. Certainly
> the
> > quality of Colnago does not compare to a Baylis, a Sachs, or a Confente,
> but
> > they are not his competition, His competition are the other firms
> supplying
> > the pro peleton - Bianchi, Peugeot, Gitane, Pinarello, etc. The first
> three
> > I believe are all owned by the same conglomerate and produce pretty much
> the
> > same TIG'ed aluminum frames painted in different colors. I'm not sure if
> > Pinarello even produces a lugged steel frame any more, and if so they
> rarely
> > advertise it, while the Colnago ads still feature lugged steel along with
> > carbon and aluminum models. Granted they are steel frames with overdone
> > paint schemes that feature straight forks which I always suspected, and
> > Brian confirms, are designed to simplify production, not improve
> > performance. But compared to most of the competition, the Colnago Master
> X
> > Light is pretty darned classic. Certainly Ernesto Colnago is a showman
> and
> > a shrewd businessman, but how else could he compete in the high-end high
> > volume bike market? I thnk he has more regard for traditional
> construction
> > than any other high-volume shop except maybe Eddy Merckx, but he is also
> > clever enough to ride current trends with other models, which is why he is
> > still a major player in the road bike market. And while some of his past
> > innovations were of questionable usefulness, he did after all produce Eddy
> > Merckx's Hour Record bike, even though it had Windsor decals slapped on it
> > at the last minute. Give Ernesto a break, he's no Brian Baylis or Richard
> > Sachs, but his name isn't on the Chinese-built TIG'ed aluminum mountain
> > bikes at K-Mart either.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jerry Moos
> > Houston, TX
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "The Maaslands" <TheMaaslands@comcast.net>
> > To: "Classic Rendezvous" <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:42 PM
> > Subject: [CR]Bob Jackson
> >
> >
> > > In response to Brian Baylis' wonderful Confente treatise, I would like
> to
> > > say that it pleases me to no end to witness the dressing down of the
> > > modern-day snake-oil vendor of the bicycle trade, namely Ernesto
> Colnago.
> > > Although my frame building expertise is limited to a few frames, I
> believe
> > I
> > > have reasonable understanding about such things. I have always been
> amazed
> > > as to how Colnago has been able to weave his schuckster magic for so
> long
> > > without any drop in his 'mojo' factor. The same also holds true for
> > another
> > > Italian from the Veneto, who will remain nameless, as I claim him as a
> > > personal friend.
> > >
> > > Further to the Colnago part, and as an owner of a Bob Jackson short
> > > wheelbase racing tandem, I can attest that Bob Jacksons too are not the
> > > greatest works of the frame building art. Non-existent mitering, cooked
> > > tubes, sloppy braze-on alignment, incompleteness of brazing are all
> > visible
> > > on my bike. It is however perhaps slightly better than average for a
> > > Jackson, but nonetheless a far cry from what can be found elsewhere. I
> do
> > > however willingly accept this 'crudeness' because it is the sweetest
> > riding
> > > tandem that I have ever had the pleasure to ride.
> > >
> > > Steven Maasland
> > > Moorestown, NJ
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: Brian Baylis <rocklube@adnc.com>
> > > To: <GPVB1@cs.com>
> > > Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 9:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [CR] eBay Confente
> > >
> > > Among many sage comments, Brian mentioned:
> > >
> > > > Well the best example I can
> > > > think of is the Bob Jackson. The article in Playboy many years ago
> > > > featured a Jackson as I recall and suddenly these frames were highly
> > > > respected and sought after. Still some of this remains. The bike
> looked
> > > > nice in the photos and gushing text was no doubt included; but the
> fact
> > > > is as a framebuilder of about 30 years now I can say that few bikes
> > > > rated that high in Mojo are as poorly built. No doubt the people who
> > > > have Jacksons they love will take exception. I'm seperating the
> emotion
> > > > from the facts. Fact is they are crude in so many ways but they work
> > > > fine, so there.
> > > >
> > > > Brian Baylis
> > > > La Mesa, CA
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 20/06/02
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 20/06/02
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 13
> From: LouDeeter@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:34:01 EDT
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Confente Rear Derailleur Routing
>
> I hate to start another Confente thread, but I noticed that the Confente on
> ebay has traditional rear derailleur cable routing, while the only Confente I
> have seen in person had the cable routed thru the right chainstay. Lou
> Deeter, Orlando FL
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:50:26 -0400
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> From: Tom Hayes <hayesbikes@mail.nls.net>
> Subject: [CR]Mavic rim question
>
> Does anyone know the approximate dates for a Mavic rim that has a
> diamond-shaped decal, with a red and gold background, where Mavic is
> written in red against the gold background and there is other writing in
> black against the red background. (I cannot read the black lettering; only
> a couple of letters haven't torn or been stripped.) And is there a
> specific model, name, or designation for this rim?
>
> As always, thank you.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Tom
>
> Tom Hayes
> 18585 Munn Road
> Chagrin Falls, Ohio 44023
> hayesbikes@nls.net
> hayes@jcu.edu
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:47:09 -0500
> From: The Maaslands <TheMaaslands@comcast.net>
> Subject: I: [CR]de rosas
> To: Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>
> Mark,
>
> I watched the Colnago video and it is indeed Ernesto himself describing
> everything. What he says in Italian is exactly what the English voiceover
> says, pure marketing blather.
>
> I have been to De Rosa's place many times over the last 15 years and no,
> they do not have a carousel like the one used by Colnago. They do use a
> preheater but it is much different and is perhaps less sophisticated because
> devoid of the timing element that you speak of. The temperature of these
> preheaters can however be quite readily regulated and are more precise than
> manually heating for anybody except the most experienced people with a
> torch. I have seen hundreds of De Rosa's without paint and my experience
> does not mirror yours. I have found that the large majority are very well
> finished. Granted there is a difference between one brazer and another, but
> that occurs almost everywhere unless it is a one-man show. They do not do
> their own painting or plating. The fellows that work there usually have
> begun at 14 years of age as apprentices (Up until a few years ago, in Italy
> it was only necessary for children to go for obligatory schooling until 14.
> Now they have joined the rest of Europe with 16 being the necessary age for
> compulsory attendance.) and tend to stay for a long time. Some of the faces
> have been there for more than 15 years and are highly prized workers by the
> De Rosa family. There are also 3 members of the De Rosa family brazing
> and/or checking every frame that goes out. Whereas Colnago claims 15
> thousand frames and 10 thousand forks a year from his Cambiago plant, De
> Rosa speaks of perhaps 3000 from his Cusano Milanino shop (the two towns are
> almost one next to the other in the industrial area North of Milan.).
> Colnago therefore would need to check 75 frames per day to be up to speed on
> bikes bearing his name. At De Rosa, with three of the family doing the QC,
> and a lower volume, the number is closer to 5 per person per day. It is
> obvious that the one is possible whereas the other is not. At present, Ugo
> is personally responsible for 100% of the quality control of the titanium
> frames, having made more than half of them himself. All you need to do to
> verify this is to check Ugo's hands and then compare them to Ernesto's.
>
> One last point regarding the robotized production line. When I worked with
> Miyata in the early 80's, I was shown a frame by one of the people who had
> gone on a factory tour in Japan. The frame came straight off the production
> line (with only the excess flux cleaned up) and there was absolutely no need
> to file anything and the brass came flush to the edge of the lugs and inside
> the BB. That was a fully robotized production and the tubes showed
> absolutely no discoloration from overheating.
>
> Steven Maasland
> Moorestown, NJ
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Bulgier <mark@bulgier.net>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 3:49 PM
> Subject: RE: [CR]de rosas
>
> > By the 80s (I think) De Rosas were probably brazed on a carousel, an
> > infernal, horrible torture device with humans strapped to it. Most all
> > larger lugged steel frame producers went to those, I'm not singling out
> > DeRosa. Joints to be brazed are heated by fixed torches and come to the
> > human already hot, probably too hot, and the human has to finish the joint
> > in the time allotted, because the carousel will move on whether it is done
> > or not.
> >
> > I saw only two DeRosas from this period with the paint off. Both had
> almost
> > fully one half of the seat lug utterly unbrazed, as far as I could tell
> from
> > the outside (i.e. without cutting the frame in half). Maybe just a
> > coincidence; a sample size of two is too small to say much with
> confidence,
> > but it's hard for me to imagine this happening even once on a frame brazed
> > by a human who wasn't tied to a carousel.
> >
> > Carousels are incredibly noisy, with all those giant rosebud torches
> > roaring, and of course awfully smoky and hot, and so the kind of workers
> > you'll get who are willing to work under those conditions are not your
> > sensitive creative types. More likely typical factory workers who work
> > there because they couldn't find or keep a better job. I know that's a
> > terrible thing to say especially because of the exceptions, the wonderful
> > people with passion for bicycles who no doubt had their reasons for
> working
> > there. But there has to be a tendency for the more artistic types to stay
> > away from such an atmosphere.
> >
> > Bill Davidson was flirting with the idea of buying a carousel during the
> > time I worked there, probably a Taiwanese copy of the Italian ones, or
> maybe
> > making his own. We went so far as to build a BB shell pre-warming station
> > with 6 or 8 propane/oxygen torches aimed at the shell. The torches were
> on
> > a little trolley that was rolled back and forth continuously by an
> electric
> > motor, to give a "waving" effect similar to what a human would do.
> (Spreads
> > the heat avoiding localized hot spots, and helps prevent the flame blowing
> > big chunks of the paste flux off) It worked great, incredibly fast, but
> we
> > all hated it so much and more or less threatened to walk off the job if we
> > had to use it. Multiply that by four for a full frame carousel.
> >
> > I have a video of the Colnago carousel, with some Italian dude (Ernesto, I
> > guess - someone here will know) expounding on why it is so wonderful. I
> > don't speak Italian, and I'm hoping that what he really said isn't quite
> as
> > ridiculous as the English voice-over translation, because much of what
> they
> > have him saying is the most fantastic claptrap. Like how their frames
> never
> > break because they age the tubing until all the molecules settle down
> before
> > using it in a frame. And how straight forks absorb all the road
> vibration,
> > while curved forks can't because the curve is rigid.
> >
> > The video can be downloaded from
> > http://bulgier.net/
> >
> > It is 17MB, kinda big if you have a modem; maybe only for you lucky
> > broadband users. Right-click and chose "Save Target As..." (MSIE users -
> > probably similar in other browsers) so that it doesn't try to open it in
> > your browser. My bandwidth won't allow this one to "stream" to you even
> if
> > yours does.
> >
> > Mark Bulgier
> > Seattle, Wa
> > USA
> > _______________________________________________
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> --__--__--
>
> Message: 16
> From: "C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:53:24 -0700
> Subject: [CR]interesting fiamme rim
>
> More-or-less by chance I've happened on a fiamme rim with a
> green oval label. I believe we went over this awhile back,
> but I've forgotten the thread. Where does the green label
> rim fit into the line...this would be a late 60s/early 70s
> rim.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Charles
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 17
> From: Mark Bulgier <mark@bulgier.net>
> To: 'The Maaslands' <TheMaaslands@comcast.net>,
> Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: RE: [CR]de rosas
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:14:32 -0700
>
> Thanks to Steven Maasland for the correct info on De Rosa. I apologize for
> airing my incorrect assumption about them being carousel-brazed.
>
> I should also add that I've always admired the brand as one of the classiest
> on earth, with a truly enviable racing heritage, and an aura of integrity
> that I can't quite put my finger on, but is undeniable nonetheless.
>
> Mark Bulgier
> Seattle, Wa
> USA
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 18
> From: NortonMarg@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:11:00 EDT
> Subject: Re: [CR]interesting fiamme rim
> To: chasds@mindspring.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> In a message dated 6/29/02 6:24:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> chasds@mindspring.com writes:
>
> << More-or-less by chance I've happened on a fiamme rim with a
> green oval label. I believe we went over this awhile back,
> but I've forgotten the thread. Where does the green label
> rim fit into the line...this would be a late 60s/early 70s
> rim. >>
> Could it be blue? Around from the early 60s, maybe earlier. It's a single
> eyelet rim, so is more suitable for a front or a low dish rear. I have a
> 1963(?) Bianchi that has a blue label on the front and a red label on the
> rear. Both rims appear "originali" because of the spokes. I would guess they
> are contemporary in every way with the "old label" reds and yellows.
> Stevan Thomas
> Alameda, CA
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 19
> From: NortonMarg@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:18:35 EDT
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Anyone know Colby Olds?
>
> This guy was in Berkeley in the late 80s-early 90s. His 26.5" bicycle,
> purchased through VeloSport and custom built by Ed Litton, was recently found
> abandoned in a carport. Interested parties in possession of said bike would
> like to know the story of how it left his hands.
> Stevan Thomas
> Alameda, CA
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:16:37 -0400
> From: Mark <rena.cutrufelli@comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: [CR]Mavic rim question
> To: Tom Hayes <hayesbikes@mail.nls.net>,
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Reply-To: rena.cutrufelli@comcast.net
>
> I just ran downstairs to check-it sounded familiar.Could this be the MA40
> and the black letters say "Made in France"? Sounds like what you described
> is what is on my 83 bike.The other decal identifies the rims as MA40. But I
> just don't know if those rims are original to my bike. Its an 83 San Marcos
> Masi GC so maybe someone will be able to connect the dots(or is it
> dot)knowing if these rims were common equipment for these-early 80's. Hope
> this helps.
>
> Mark Cutrufelli
> still mojoless in Laurel,MD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-admin@bikelist.org]On Behalf Of Tom Hayes
> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 8:50 PM
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Mavic rim question
>
> Does anyone know the approximate dates for a Mavic rim that has a
> diamond-shaped decal, with a red and gold background, where Mavic is
> written in red against the gold background and there is other writing in
> black against the red background. (I cannot read the black lettering; only
> a couple of letters haven't torn or been stripped.) And is there a
> specific model, name, or designation for this rim?
>
> As always, thank you.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Tom
>
> Tom Hayes
> 18585 Munn Road
> Chagrin Falls, Ohio 44023
> hayesbikes@nls.net
> hayes@jcu.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:58:50 -0700
> Subject: Re: [CR]Ross Shafer before salsa
> From: Terence Shaw <terence@shawscycles.com>
> To: <jimmycue@att.net>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>
> Redbush...I'm sorry I won't explain the name in this public forum
> T. Shaw
> Santa Clara, California
>
> > From: jimmycue@att.net
> > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:26:43 +0000
> > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Subject: [CR]Ross Shafer before salsa
> >
> > Before Ross Shafer started salsa cycles he built frames
> > under what name and i here he built beautiful lugged and
> > even better fillet brazed bikes but i have never seen
> > one anybody have info on his early work?
> > Jimmy Katynski Madison hts mi.
> > _______________________________________________
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> End of Classicrendezvous Digest