and I say tomato, but just don't compare apples and oranges. I've kinda begged out of the whole firestorm I started since I think it's all been said and all sides have been expressed. The one thing I'd like to add is don't try comparisons of the feel of a Raleigh 3-speed to and road bike, mountain bike, etc. The reason is you're then not talking about the subject which is the tubing. Two bikes made from the same tubing but one with 68 degree angles and one with 72 degree angles are going to ride completely different. This is why in my original post I talked about IDENTICAL bikes with different tubing. Now can we just get back to if Masi and Herse had a fist fight in heaven who would win? enjoy, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
PS: 10 points to the person who get's the reference in my last sentence.