Hello Sterling and All,
I want to start out buy saying I don't want to appear elitist, condescending or patronizing to Brian Bayliss (or Richard Sachs from his previous responses). As many people know on this list I have the pleasure to have had a Rene Herse touring bike that I had built for me in about 1983.
While there are many examples of the bikes listed below that ride well and look very nice this is a very small sample of bicycle frames to draw many conclusions on how they are the finest ever made (a claim made by all at one time or another) with so many fine products out there. Don't read me wrong, but I have seen a number of very poorly detailed Cinelli and Colnago framesets before and after destruction and their quality varies a lot from the ones I have seen.
When looking for the ultimate frame some folks would not put these on the long list but it depends on your criteria. On the much revered Rene Herse, there were a number of builders over the years (as I have been told, mine was made by the apprentice, son in law) as details vary a good bit as did workmanship! The remarkable thing about Rene Herse as Mike Kone has pointed out over the years is the design and innovations. The bikes seem when fitted properly (including weight of rider) and used as intended seem to have a wonderful ride (a nebulous thing for sure). I have certainly seen builders on this; the CR list, whose end products feature in care and detail that wildly exceed my Rene Herse in many ways.
To say that Rene Herse and Alex Singer are the only builders to ever get things right is a little broad since as fond and proud as I am of my Herse we must remember that when they were building in their prime (whenever that was) there were many fine builders in France with fantastic products and reputations. There were certainly many dozens of somewhat similar (if not superior bikes) built in France and elsewhere that are and shall remain somewhat unknown in the USA.
Because of their location in Paris and stout patronage of Clifford Graves and his troops of the IBTS Singer and Herse were imported into the US in sizable numbers and got lots of ink in the consumer press and also were supplied by shops around the country. Daniel Roubour (sic) drawings with Rene Herse featured did not hurt them at all.
I'm not beating up Herse but I want to show some perspective. It's not the only game ever played.
On the shimmything, I suspect it's highly unlikely a misaligning a frame will allow for improvement. The opposite is likely a potential problem. From my thirty of so years hearing complaints at the bike store about shimmy. Big and/or tall riders on big and/or tall bikes have this problem a lot. In the old days many 61 cm SL (lighter) frames had many more complaints on this than SP (heavier) gauge frames of the same size. An over size top tube, heavier gauge top tube, a smooth riding style with relaxed grip at high speed all help.
A good builder will match tube gauge and fit to the rider and application and these problems should be largely eliminated. A bike can be too light. A 21 lb bike to a 210lb (20%) rider is proportionally lighter to him than a 17 lb bike to a 150 lb rider (11%). Component weights are very similar so this allows a 4 lb surplus in reinforcement to the heavier riders bike frame; or these days he can have an extra frame with double tubes everywhere with modern materials and still come out ahead.
Most Americans buy of the rack, most really nice bikes are not found there. My experience is that if you don't have to wait a few months to get one, it's not going to be really nice.
I hope I haven't offended, just informed and some is of course my opinion is based on my experience.
High regards,
Gilbert "my Rene Herse and my latest bike just arrived after 8-9 months which is no guarantee of quality as sometimes builders are just damn slow for a reason" Anderson Raleigh, NC USA
In a message dated 7/9/02 4:48:46 PM, Sterling@tns.net writes:
<< A couple of ideas regarding frame building/construction came together for me in the past few weeks. I had the pleasure of going over the construction of some of the finest framesets ever made ( Masi , Colnago , Herse , Cinelli and Baylis) with Brian Baylis. I discovered a lot of things I should have been looking for all the years that I have been around bicycles. I'm a former racer , mechanic , and now a collector. It's amazing how much that I had been missing all these years . However the real eye opener came when we got to the elements that you can not see until you investigate the construction of the junctions inside the Bottom Bracket shell and head tubes. It is now clear to me that all frame sets are constructed a little differently or with different levels of care for the quality of the finished product. With this new knowledge I am better able to determine if a bikes reputation is based ( "Mojo" , Million Dollar Marketing Campaigns, B. S. , or Real Engineering/Constructor/ Genius )!
There is an interesting article in this months Velo News , which discusses the elements of front end shimmy. Shimmy , head shake , high-speed wobble is caused by top tube rigidity or lack of it. The reason I bring this up is because when we examined the A model Rene Herse frameset it became clear that Herse understood this point well. His frameset was constructed so that the top tube and down tube , in addition to the brazing at the lugs , were also brazed inside the head tube. The French so clearly understood the elements of front end shimmy , that their tube sets also included an oversized top tube. It is also known that Rene Herse built racing bikes with oversized down tubes for extra rigidity , and I believe I saw a Rene Herse Randonneur bike on Ebay last year that also had the oversize down tube treatment . I'm sure there would have been more of oversized tube sets , if builders/constructors did not have to make the lugs themselves to fit the oversized tubes. Bates settled on tubes that were oversized in the center sections only , because he could not get lugs to go with a complete oversize tube set.
I would like to hear from the frame builders/constructors on the list as to what they think of these ideas ( tubes brazed to the head tube; oversized tube sets). This best reason for not brazing the tubes inside the head tube is all the extra work , only Rene Herse and Alex Singer were willing to go the extra mile. Regarding oversized tubes I have a 1995 De Rosa Giro De Italia it has oversized tubes and is one of the best riding bikes in my collection. Would having builders like Baylis and Sachs build bikes with oversized tubes ruin the attempt to capture the past with this type of build? Any comments from others?
Thank you!
Sterling Peters
San Diego
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