well said (below), to both daves...
here's something else to ponder. there is no more commerce to be made in the bicycle industry from lugged framebuilding. it's a non-ferrous world now, thanks to the trends of the previous 15-20 years. some of us on this list 'love' lugs for various reasons, explainable or not, but the trend towards other joining techniques has allowed other high quality bicycles to be made more efficiently and for less money, tho' they may lack style. but the newer models have <their own> style and, cleary, the market has spoken. i like what i do, and i know the other builders on the list like what they do. by and large, we all live outside the lines. lugs, as a joining technique, are part of a small world getting smaller. i think it's the best way to provide a solution to the "how shall i join these tubes..." question, but it is no longer the economic route. i don't think people buy a bicycle anymore based on whether there are lugs on it , or an imron paint job, or it's silver brazed, etcetera. if folks like you and trust you, and you offer service, there will be a line at your door. for the listee that asked about the future of it all, or similar, i think the efficient route would be to spend as much time as possible around the sport and its mechanics and learn about how these things are really used and abused. try to get work on a production line and do all the repetitive work possible. learn about setups, speed, and efficiency. with a base such as this, you'll be much more valuable in the case that you do land at a 'custom' shop. if that occurs, your habits can be honed in and your skills enhanced. i've always answered all comers regarding life as a framebuilder and all that it implies. i think it's the wrong 'row-to-hoe' in this era. the commercial bicycles are so incredibly good that there's almost no reason to go further than the mall to get your bicycle. surely, a far cry from when we started, an era in which it was unthinkable that you could get a 'good' bicycle without having it made by a framebuilder. lastly, i would show anybody anything. but i would not encourage anyone to pursue this commercially because they will ultimately be competing with the cannondales, the trek, the bianchis, and others, of the world, and these types of firms can and do manipulate the market. to pursue this for other reasons, that's a different story. e-RICHIE chester, ct
On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:59:39 -0500 David Whalley <dwhalley@qbp.com>
writes:
> Hi,
>
> Here I go ranting (or rambling). Hang on and mabye I'll get to a
> point (or
> not).
>
> I will say that I'm a fairly young framebuilder (25 yrs) and that
> it's quite
> hard to get started in this area (time, equipment and especially
> experience). Actually, I think that the time and equipment alone
> makes it
> hard. When you throw in experience it makes it darned near
> impossible and
> life altering risky!!! That makes an enormus barrier to entry plus
> the fact
> that you can't really learn anything without paying a lot to attend
> classes
> on the west coast (especially if you live on the east coast).
> Framebuilders
> can't afford to hire apprentices, even as a volunteer to sweep
> metal
> shavings on the floor and watch. We get in the way and make things
> a mess
> just by being there. I read about old classic and modern greats who
> got
> apprenticeships at some of the fantastic frame houses in England and
> it all
> seems like a pipe dream to me. The bike boom did some folks a great
> favor
> but a lot of the small guys didn't....
>
> I've learned everything so far by trial and error and emailing my
> mistakes
> to others. I bought my own torches and found cheap tubes to start
> on. I've
> taken them to a few good builders in my area (thank goodness there
> are some
> here) and let them laugh and point out my errors. I then do it
> again and
> again until I had no errors. I really don't know what I'd do if
> there were
> no builders here.
>
> I'll speak on lugged bikes because it is a passion of mine. It's
> just hard
> to sell them. TIG welding is cheap and aluminum is cheap.
> Customers are
> very aware of price, especially with the larger companies that so
> proliferate our industry these days (US companies and foreign
> companies, no
> exceptions). With customers being sold on component choices more
> and more
> d of on the frame) and lightweight being paramount, it gets even
> harder. I think that in some ways lugged frames and even a very
> classic
> lugless frame sells itself. If you put a handmade frame from some
> of our
> listmembers next to another "production" frame, then it becomes
> obvious to a
> customer which one is better quality. It's just harder now more
> than ever
> for even the high end shops to be able to do that.
>
> I hope that when I grow more experienced that I can begin to dream
> of
> holding a torch like Richard Sachs, Brian, Dave and others. They
> are a
> golden mean that I hope to get to someday. I learned things the
> hard way
> because there's not many other ways to do it. I think though that
> seeing
> what can be done allows us to reach for higher goals than even the
> old
> builders couldn't imagine. If they had seen some of the high end
> custom
> frames made now....
>
> I would give my eye teeth to be an apprentice (for free even) to
> some of
> these builders, but until I win the lottery (or they win), noone has
> the
> time or money to allow for beginners. It's just a fact of life that
> you
> don't get rich easily, or even at all :-) in bikes.
>
> Dave Whalley
> Minneapolis, MN (soon to be Asheville, NC)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: davebohm [mailto:davebohm@cox.net]
> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 1:18 PM
> To: Dennis; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Frame building skills
>
>
> I thought this an interesting question. I have mixed emotions about
> this.
>
> There are but a dozen or so builders turning out great lugged frames
> in the
> U.S. It is a concern of mine that once this group retires or leaves
> the biz
> there would not necessarily be builders who replace them.
> Framebuilding is
> alive and well in the states but I have noticed that many of the
> newest
> builders specialize in TIG welding and although they have an
> appreciation
> for lugged bikes have no intention of learning the trade or doing it
> for
> their own satisfaction.
>
> It is hard for the experienced ones to impart their knowledge
> because of the
> time involved in teaching a student. The concept of apprentices is
> an
> anachronism. There are but a few places one can go to work and get
> paid and
> make lugged frames anymore.
>
> I don't know if I am the youngest in this group. Probably close and
> I have
> learned what I know so far a little differently than Brian, Richard
> and the
> others. When I first started there were no places to go work for,
> asking
> one of these guys to teach me with no prior experience would not
> have gone
> over well. Jeez, to be honest I hadn't even seen a lot of lugged
> frame
> being it was the early nineties and they were already going away
> then. So I
> attended United Bicycle Institute. This is the main educational
> avenue
> right now. I took a two week class. What that gave me was a quick
> introduction into what I would need and the general process.
>
> I think the thing going for me is my prior silversmithing
> experience. The
> fancy stuff, which is usually the hard part for most is the easiest
> for me.
> The actual construction process was the hard part. I really wished
> I had a
> mentor for this so I would not have made so many experiments as I
> like to
> put it. I have to say that everyone is fairly open about how to do
> things
> and I have gotten invaluable information from many on this list and
> I thank
> them for that. Sometimes with certain things I am a little tight
> lipped,
> but if someone really wants to know and shows a propensity for it I
> will
> tell them.
>
> I think there will always be a few classic builders. If there is a
> will
> there is a way.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David Bohm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dennis
> To: Classics
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 8:52 AM
> Subject: [CR]Frame building skills
>
>
> With all the frame builders out there turning out beautifully
> constructed
> lugged frames, what (if anything) are they doing to pass on their
> trade?
> It
> would be a shame to loose all that knowledge when they "expire".
>
> Dennis Stover
> Arleta, CA
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/