My 1970 Mercier with the plain jane Normandy high flange hubs came with Atom QRs, which had the black plastic winged washers. They still work great and the chrome has held up well. Ron Gurth Gettin' too Hot for wool in Carmel, IN
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Conversations on wheel building...are there great wheelbuilders and w... 2. Re: Conversations on wheel building...are there greatwheelbuildersand why are they better than others? (J.Dunn) 3. Re: Conversations on wheel building...are there greatwheelbuilders and why are they better than others? (Joe Bender-Zanoni) 4. spoke prep (brian blum) 5. Re: Conversations on wheel building...are there great wheelbuilders and why are they better than others? (David Feldman) 6. To solder or not to solder (Matthew Grimm) 7. Re: Paris-Sport (Paul C. Brodek) 8. Re: Campy instructions (Chuck Schmidt) 9. be friends, you fools! be friends! (matt yee) 10. WTB: Balilla Brakeset & Campagnolo Adapter (Nick Zatezalo) 11. Re: Another brown truck, another Pogliaghi; Spence's wheels 12. French QR Questions: Huret? Simplex? Speidel? Malliard? (mitch harris) 13. [RE] Gitane TdF question (mitch harris) 14. Fwd: values/oil/water/spoke solutions (was:Re: [CR]spoke prep 15. Do you ride with a helmet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 22:35:01 EDT From: DavidS4410@aol.com To: bill_bryant@prodigy.net, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there great wheelbuilders and w... Message-ID: <12a.2d321424.2c339ed5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1
Bill, What you say is correct. However, in the normal daily business of selling and repairing bicycles, speed is a key ingredient to wheel building. In fact now prebuilt wheels dominate the market. As a former bike racer who "switched over" going to work for Schwinn, I used to hear a lot of complaints about poorly built wheels. But for the bulk of the bike riding public, factory machine built wheels were OK. I never learned to build wheels myself, prefering instead to leave it to experts such as Oscar Juner or, yes, Spence Wolf. I always heard that his wife, Lillian, would lace the wheels and Spence would tension them. Later at Schwinn when we purchased Kestrel, they did not want us to build wheels for them, but I went to our wheel builder in Southern California, Sta-Tru Wheels, and said I wanted a wheel that was built properly, and didn't care that took longer and cost more to do, to just do it, they came back with a wheel that suprised the Kestrel people. We used our wheels for the Kestrel kit program. Dave Staub
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:46:00 -0800
From: "J.Dunn"
To: ,
Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there
greatwheelbuildersand why are they better than others?
Message-ID: <027c01c34054$d6e3f500$0201a8c0@pacbell.net>
References:
<020501c34013$ac8ddb40$ead2f50c@C1921978A><3F0200FE.4F3EE60C@earthlink.net><3F02084D.539B0E6D@earthlink.net><019801c34032$c66ed2c0$0201a8c0@pacbell.net>
<3F021442.22F2BD39@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
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Precedence: list
Message: 2
> Actually the question I posed to you, "What's your opinion John?", was
> what is your opinion regarding wheel builders... not what is your
> opinion about list veterans, Masi, Campagnolo, and the rest of the
> agenda. ;)
>
> Chuck in South Pasadena
Oh, I understood your question perfectly, Chuck, as you well know, but I deferred to your superior knowledge and experience as one of the annointed ones (or is that"in The Circle of Trust") .
It appears that, although there seem to be a number of list members interested enough in this thread to offer some pertinent replies, you don't seem to want to offer anything except snide remarks about those replies. Have you lost all interest in offering anything opinions of value if it doesn't happen to be what *you* are interested in talking about?
It doesn't matter what my opinion is, on this thread, only that you seem to be going out of your way to discourage newer members from asking questions that *you* think are dead horses and no longer need to be "hashed" out. Arrogance draws few converts. :-)
John in Boise
>
>
"J.Dunn" wrote:
> >
> > There you see how easy that was? ;-) Just because there are *many*
> > subjects that have been "hashed" over on the list, by all the list
veterans,
> > doesn't mean that someone who hasn't heard all the same comments should
be
> > denied a meaningful reply. That's my opinion, Chuck. Maybe he should
have
> > included Masi or Campagnolo in his question, since those subjects
certainly
> > haven't been hashed over very much.
> >
> > John in Boise
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chuck Schmidt"
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there great
> > wheelbuildersand why are they better than others?
> >
> > > Okay John, have it your way.
> > >
> > > My opinion: No, no their wheels are no better than any other good
wheel
> > > builder. Why? Because all the "secrets" have been shared in the last
> > > twenty five years.
> > >
> > > What's your opinion John?
> > >
> > > Chuck Schmidt in South Pasadena
> > >
> > >
> > > "J.Dunn" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sounds to me like what you're really asking is, "Why are some people
> > > > famous and other equally talented people not?"
> > > >
> > > > No. This was the question: "Are their wheels actually better than
> > other
> > > > good wheel builders and , if so, how?"
> > > >
> > > > Nothing to do with fame or notoriety. Are their wheels betters than
> > other
> > > > good wheel builders or aren't they? If so, why? Nothing to "hash"
out
> > > > that I can see.
> > > >
> > > > John Dunn in Boise
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Chuck Schmidt"
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:46 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there great
> > > > wheelbuildersand why are they better than others?
> > > >
> > > > > Tom Sanders wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > (cut)
> > > > > > What I'd like to know is just what is it that gives famous wheel
> > > > builders such as Joe Young or Spence Wolf such a cache among the
classic
> > > > biking community. Are their wheels actually better than other good
> > wheel
> > > > builders and , if so, how?
> > > > > > Please, don't just tell me they have "Mojo"!
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds to me like what you're really asking is, "Why are some
people
> > > > > famous and other equally talented people not?" I don't think we
need
> > to
> > > > > hash this one out, actually, but then again that's just my
opinion.
> > > > > Hash away if you must...
> > > > >
> > > > > Chuck Schmidt
> > > > > L.A., SoCal where questions of fame, celebrity and talent are
decided
> > on
> > > > > a daily basis.
> > > > >
> > > > > .
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:13:13 -0400 From: Joe Bender-Zanoni To: DTSHIFTER@aol.com, tsan7759142@comcast.net, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there greatwheelbuilders and why are they better than others? Message-ID: <008e01c34047$e0ad1100$6400a8c0@jfbender> References: <1ab.172dd35d.2c3381da@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Precedence: list Message: 3
Yea, I remember those seven minute Schwinn wheels.
You pulled a Varsity out of the box in 1973. You got $3.50 flat rate to assemble it. Damn- there was the back rim literally flapping side to side, untensioned, untrued, just laced. Great- 20 minutes shot just to straighten that out. But before that tape the bars at a speed resembling a calf roper tying.
Joe B-Z
Great Notch, NJ
To: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there greatwheelbuilders and why are they better than others?
>
> In a message dated 7/1/03 5:00:25 PM, tsan7759142@comcast.net writes:
>
> << He again said that good wheels are good wheels and that if we wanted to
> talk great wheel builders that he had seen a very short woman years ago at
the
> Schwinn factory who was as wide as tall, but could build a great wheel in
> seven minutes. He felt that was the greatest wheel builder he had ever
seen and
> that was unlikely to be topped. >>
>
> Evening Gang,
>
> Seven minutes, eh? Sure would like to have seen it in action, because my
> experience gives me much cause for doubt. Especially, the "great wheel"
claim???
>
> I don't think wheel building should be rushed (IMO)!!!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chuck Brooks
> Malta, NY
> _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:00:00 -0700 From: "brian blum" To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]spoke prep Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: bbspokes@lycos.com Message: 4
My guess is Castor Oil. Brian B in Berkeley
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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:16:40 -0700 (PDT) From: David Feldman To: Bill Bryant , classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Conversations on wheel building...are there great wheelbuilders and why are they better than others? Message-ID: <20030702041640.63460.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5
One thing I remember from Schwinn school's wheelbuilding lesson was that the wheels were deliberately undertensioned so as to absorb shock and protect the bikes during shipping in the long-pack Chicago Schwinn boxes. David Feldman Vancouver, WA Schwinn Sales West graduate, autumn 1975
> Some years after developing a pretty good regional
> customer base from my
> wheelbuilding skills, my bike shop employer sent me
> to the Schwinn mechanics
> school to show our customers we were all 'Schwinn
> Certified'. Didn't learn a
> whole lot there that was previously unknown to me,
> but it was certainly good
> training for the new mechanics.
>
> The school's whole aim with wheelbuilding was for
> speed because TIME =
> MONEY. And we never saw anything but heavy steel
> rims; nothing lightweight
> was discussed as I recall. Thus, building "good"
> wheels was not the goal,
> minimizing labor costs was. Period. I dunno about
> that exact 7 minute wheel
> claim but certainly heard similar stories at the
> Schwinn school which were
> supposed to inspire us to become "good wheelbuilders
> who can crank them
> out". We subsequently learned speed-specific lacing
> and truing techniques
> that got them out in about 15 minutes... but they
> were not wheels I would
> sell to a customer back home doing his first
> century. Ick! :-(
> Replacing *crappy factory wheels* is exactly why I
> sold a good many wheels
> to cycling enthusiasts during the 1970s and '80s.
> But you get what you pay
> for, too-- and those heavy steel wheels didn't sell
> for all that much
> either. Indeed, that was the whole point. OTOH, I
> would be very surprised if
> the wheels on Schwinn Paramounts of the same era
> were built in 7 minutes,
> but they weren't all that well-built either.
>
> As to the short, wide woman at the Schwinn factory
> cranking them out in 7
> minutes (probably for piece-rate wages because time
> = money), I'd really
> like to know what would make anyone think her wheels
> were "great"? Did they
> go ride them for thousands of miles? Hell no, they
> were very likely heavy
> steel-rimmed dogs bound for lowly Varsities,
> Suburbans, Continentals, etc.
> And for around town usage they probably held up
> fine-- braking in the rain
> aside. So, by that definition, maybe they were great
> in their own way.
> Funny, though, one sure doesn't see many of those
> "great" wheels out on club
> centuries, doubles, races, or being ridden
> cross-country.
> Apples vs. Oranges, IMHO.
>
>
> Bill Bryant
> Santa Cruz, CA
>
>
>
>
> on 7/1/03 5:31 PM, DTSHIFTER@aol.com at
> DTSHIFTER@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 7/1/03 5:00:25 PM,
> tsan7759142@comcast.net writes:
> >
> > << He again said that good wheels are good wheels
> and that if we wanted to
> > talk great wheel builders that he had seen a very
> short woman years ago at
> > the
> > Schwinn factory who was as wide as tall, but could
> build a great wheel in
> > seven minutes. He felt that was the greatest
> wheel builder he had ever seen
> > and
> > that was unlikely to be topped. >>
> >
> > Evening Gang,
> >
> > Seven minutes, eh? Sure would like to have seen
> it in action, because my
> > experience gives me much cause for doubt.
> Especially, the "great wheel"
> > claim???
> >
> > I don't think wheel building should be rushed
> (IMO)!!!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Chuck Brooks
> > Malta, NY
> > _______________________________________________
> > Classicrendezvous mailing list
> > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >
>
http://www.bikelist.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
http://www.bikelist.org/
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Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:31:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Grimm To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]To solder or not to solder Message-ID: <20030702043114.6405.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6
I found this article to be very interesting, especially the feedback at the end:
http://www.roadbikerider.com/
Where are my tie wraps???
Matthew (I Tied But I Didn't Solder) Grimm Shakopee, Minnesota, USA
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:37:46 -0400 From: "Paul C. Brodek"
To: "John Pergolizzi" Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Paris-Sport Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <003d01c3403c$0b9f71c0$72b6580c@D1KBTP11> References: <10537C64.36BBABB5.0269AA25@aol.com> <003d01c3403c$0b9f71c0$72b6580c@D1KBTP11> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 7
Hey All,
By 1980-'81 Andreas was living and painting in Queens, NY. He painted about a dozen frames for us, and I often dropped them off and picked them up. His father was also no longer working for Fraysee, building frames under his own name in Queens. I can't remember if the building and painting were done on the same premises---I don't think I ever met =46rancisco there when I was visiting Andreas.
There was a guy by the name of Bill Ralph building frames for Fraysee in '80 and '81. He built a few frames under his own name ("Ralph"), but I think left framebuilding and the biz by the mid-'80s. He was a friend of the owners of the shop where I worked, would visit every now and then and built a very small frame for one of the owners. It was the only Ralph I've ever seen.
So--- Cuevas/Limongi/Melton/Molton/Orero/Ralph
Any others?
Cheers,
Paul Brodek Hillsdale, NJ =20
=20
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:48:31 -0400, "John Pergolizzi"
wrote:
>Yes, Andreas painted. About 1978 till?
>J.Pergolizzi
>N.Y.C.
>----- Original Message -----=20
>From: "jamie swan"
>To:
>Cc:
>Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [CR]Paris-Sport
>
>
>> Mike Melton and Dave Molton are the others but did Andreas Cuevas ever
>work there?
>>
>> Jamie Swan - Northport, N.Y.
>>
>> LouDeeter@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > In a message dated 7/1/2003 9:10:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>jswan@optonline.net writes:
>> >
>> > > made by Orero who was one 5 (maybe 6 ?) different frame
>> > > builders who worked
>> > > there at one time or another.
>> > >
>> > > Good trivia question: name those frame builders?
>> >
>> > In addition to Orero, Francisco Cuevas and Guiseppe Limongi were two=
of
>the other builders at Paris Sport. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
Paul C. Brodek Hillsdale, N.J. U.S.A. E-mail: pcb@skyweb.net ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:09:02 -0700 From: Chuck Schmidt To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Campy instructions Message-ID: <3F0268E8.B37E7857@earthlink.net> References:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net Message: 8
Jan Heine wrote:
>
(cut)
> However, does anybody have instructions for these parts? If so, one
> could settle questions like "Do Campy hubs need to be adjusted a bit
> loosely after the wheel is built to account for axle compression (or
> bending) due to the quick release." So, instruction owners, please
> step forward! (And maybe Chuck Schmidt could produce a volume of
> Campy instructions...)
Here's the instructions (period ending with mid-80s) that are reproduced in the current Catalogo Campagnolo:
- Cambio Corsa instruction pamphlet from circa '47 - Record headset instruction sheet circa '70s - Super Record headset instruction sheet circa late '70s - Record brakeset instruction sheet circa early '70s - Record brakeset instruction sheet circa late '70s - SR/NR rear derailleur instruction sheet circa early '80s - Chain-holder pamphlet sheet circa mid-late '70s - Freewheel pamphlet circa early '80s
I'm sure there are others, but I've never seen any.
Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, CA
. ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:09:23 -1000
=== message truncated ===
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