Dave Anderson wrote: I mean who am I, let alone who are we, to tell Ernie C. which way he should have dressed out his bikes in the late 70s? Long live authentic uniqueness. Long live not blindly going along with the pack. To my mind, these statements are contradictory. Isn't setting up your bikes to exact factory specs "blindly going along" if not with the pack, then with the whims of the manufacturers? If I had to guess, I say the lack of Campy brakes was a cost issue and Raoul's numbers certainly back this up. So, while using Universal brakes on a Cinelli is interesting in some ways, it also reflects cost saving efforts by the manufacturer. I see the value of preserving the manufacturer's vision (and I'd certainly hate to see NR brakes on a bike from before the brakes were ever made) but I think a bike that displays what people really aspired to is also interesting. Heck, if Campy brakes cost over $50 in the early 70's they must have been seen as super-de-duper exotic. While I think it is interesting to note that a lot of Italian bikes had non-Campy brakes as O/E, I don't think it's necessary to maintain this setup for a bike to be "authentic," "correct," or posessed of major mojo. While it can be argued that 100% OE makes a bike authentic and correct, it could also be argued that this is NOT the case. I wasn't on the scene in the 60's and 70's, but I get the impression that it may have been more common back then to buy a complete racing bike than it was in the 80's. By the 80's it seemed like everyone bought frames and built them up to suit their own tastes (It was rare, at least among my friends, to assemble a completely new bike at all, usually some parts were carried over from the previous setup). Often people's tastes were for full Campy, but sometimes not. In any case, no one set of parts is the "historically accurate" choice if everyone set up his own bike in his own way. In fact, since everyone built bikes with their own mix of parts the 100% factory-spec bike may be the least authentic of all, at least for 80's bikes. Of course these days it is once agin becoming common for people to buy complete "factory" bikes such as Treks and 'dales. Tom Dalton Bethlehem, PA classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org wrote:Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submissions to classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
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Today's Topics:
1. Chuck's Pasadena ride (J. Edwards) 2. WTB: Weinmann Delta brakes (M.Slater) 3. RE: Pegoretti bits (Eaton, Mark) 4. Kiwiwayne's tranzactions...... (Wayne Davidson) 5. Re: Chuck's Pasadena ride (Steve Maas) 6. 26.6 seatpost info....... (Wayne Davidson) 7. Masi GC available 8. Stashes was pegoretti bits (Jay Sexton) 9. Cirque du cyclisme (Jay Sexton) 10. Re: Cirque du cyclisme (Chuck Schmidt) 11. Was mildly odd Campagnolo brake calipers, Now Brakeset Authenticity 12. Re: Chuck's Pasadena ride - Now Weinmann Rims (Raoul Delmare) 13. Re: Was mildly odd Campagnolo brake calipers, Now Brakeset Authenticity (Wayne Davidson) 14. Re: Was mildly odd Campagnolo brake calipers, Now BrakesetAuthenticity (Raoul Delmare)
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:39:20 -0800 From: "J. Edwards" To: "Classicrendezvous" Subject: [CR]Chuck's Pasadena ride Message-ID: <41200314933920340@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Reply-To: jdedwards3@earthlink.net Message: 1
Lou Deeter wrote:
I think J.D. Miller is actually J.D. Edwards, spinner and Air Force test pilot extraordinaire. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
Thanks, Lou for revealing my true identity. I was hoping to stay incognito.
This ride was great, I truly admired all the bikes there. The Holdsworth is exactly like the one I first started racing on. Andrew's Mercian was gorgeous, and very reminiscent of my old Mercian Track bike. Perhaps in the bikie version of heaven, there is a bike of every variety available to be ridden, perfectly sized, with others riding what they enjoy.
-JD Edwards Watching something fall from the sky in the Mojave Desert
--- J. Edwards --- jdedwards3@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:56:19 -0800 From: "M.Slater" To: Subject: [CR]WTB: Weinmann Delta brakes Message-ID: <000801c2b793$12485140$64507444@host> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 2
Greetings,
I recently aquired a single Weinmann Delta brake -silver color - and = would like to find a match.=20
Or, if someone has a black set they would like to get rid of - please = get in touch with me.
Thanks Mike Slater Modesto,Ca. flash@charter.net
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:46:37 -0800 From: "Eaton, Mark" To: 'Richard M Sachs' Cc: "'classicrendezvous@bikelist.org'" Subject: RE: [CR]Pegoretti bits Message-ID: <902AE23D0E8CD411B0BB009027E5FFAEF1CC2F@exchange.hines.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3
There has been, it seems, in the last 10-12 years or so, a new level of sophistication assigned to things that for a long time didn't have such monetary value and preciousness (is that really a word?). You can't touch older guitars and certain baseball cards unless you have some deep pockets. Why should it be any different with classic bikes and parts? The bicycle thing is a bit more esoteric than some other subjects, but with the advent of Ebay putting things in your face in a much more glorious light than the past, none of us should be surprised by any of this. Go to a Borders book store and check out all the obscure magazines available for a variety of subjects, and then there are all the even more obscure titles that you have to have some serious knowledge of a subject to find. I don't know-might be America at its best and its worst...
Mark Eaton
Sonoma County, CA -----Original Message----- From: Richard M Sachs [mailto:richardsachs@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:43 PM To: OROBOYZ@aol.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca Subject: Re: [CR]Pegoretti bits
snipped: OROBOYZ@aol.com writes: "I can't say about Italy, but for a 10% fee I could come up with that stuff this afternoon... "
isn't this at the core of some of the problems facing the classic bicycle community; that so much of what was once common and necessary, and today so sought after in spite of the legwork involved and/or the costs assigned to the 'rarity' assigned... so much of these old parts are available: frame parts, nos campagnolo stuff, maybe even binda toestraps too...but it's all hidden away and taken out of the mainstream. like dale, i too have stashes, and multiples of stashes... some are piled onto other stashes.
there really is no shortage at all. the only difference is that the method of inventory has changed. e-RICHIE chester, ct **************************************** snipped: OROBOYZ@aol.com writes: "I can't say about Italy, but for a 10% fee I could come up with that stuff this afternoon... " in reply to: Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca writes: "Campagnolo1010B dropouts, and top bb cable guides graced the frame I drooled over. Not that they are "rare" but I think it's fair to say that coming up with 60 sets could be "difficult".
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 03 18:13:44 +1300 From: Wayne Davidson Cc: CR BIKE LIST Subject: [CR]Kiwiwayne's tranzactions...... Message-ID: <20030109051245.GJGH29171.mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz@[210.54.75.115]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4
Hi all, I am on holidays, no payments have arrived as yet for my sales, so hopefully they will when I get back home, will be in contact after the 18th.......regards wayne Davidson Invercargill New Zealand ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:14:21 -0800 From: Steve Maas Cc: Classicrendezvous Subject: Re: [CR]Chuck's Pasadena ride Message-ID: <3E1D052D.1060202@nonlintec.com> References: <41200314933920340@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5
Yes, I confess, it was my Carlton that blew a tire right outside the parking lot at the beginning of the ride. I reached into my pack for my mini-tool, necessary to remove the wheel nuts, and discovered that I'd forgotten it. So, I sheepishly told everyone else to go on, tucked my tail between my legs, and shuffled back to my car. I saw the whole crew glide across Fair Oaks Avenue as I waited for a traffic light on my way home, the humiliated Carlton hanging on my bike rack. Sigh. Maybe next month...
Today a remarkable thing happened. I drove south to Carlsbad to pick up yet another bike I bought on Ebay, an early 50's Olmo with the old, single-jockeywheel Campagnolo rear derailleur (I forget what it's called) and suicide shifter in front. Part of my search for a bike that's almost as old as I am. It was at Pacific Coast Cycles on Roosevelt St. in Carlsbad, and, wow, is that a great shop! The owner, Chuck Hoefer, is extraordinarily friendly and helpful, and the shop is full of wonderful old bikes and parts. The kind of place that has a whole wall of tiny, mismatched plastic drawers, each loaded with small parts. Exactly the opposite of the squeaky-clean, modern shop filled with clothes and mountain bikes. One of his bikes was a mid-70s Cinelli, all Super Record, and I came soooo close to asking the price. Only the image of my wife waiting at home with a new cast-iron skillet stopped me.
Anyway, I mentioned that my current project in a late 50s Allegro, and Chuck started to tell me the story of a local person who had one. Hmmm, interesting; the original owner of my bike lived in Carlsbad or Oceanside, the next town north along the coast. The bike was stolen once, and he just happened to see someone riding it as he was test-riding a new tandem. He followed the culprit, got his address, and reported it to the owner. The owner called the police, and the bike was recovered. We started comparing notes, and it became obvious that it was my bike (unless there were two red 59-cm Allegros without decals and a thick, gunky paint job in Carlsbad, California at the same time.)
On the way out with my "new" Olmo, I noticed that Chuck had quite a nice selection of 27" tires, so I bought a new pair of Continentals to replace the cheapo tires on the Carlton. The old rims on the Carlton do not hook the bead, like modern ones, so the tire can slip off the rim, causing a blowout. Perhaps the better tires, with stronger bead wires, will help. (Anyone have another suggestion?)
Afterward, I took a pleasant ride south along the coast, turning around just north of La Jolla. Not on the Carlton though; it's sulking in the garage with its wheels off.
Steve Maas Long Beach, California, USA
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 03 18:48:54 +1300 From: Wayne Davidson To: "CR BIKE LIST" Subject: [CR]26.6 seatpost info....... Message-ID: <20030109054755.GWJM29171.mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz@[219.88.3.103]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6
Hi, I am looking for one for an old frame I have, is 26.6mm a common size?, frame has been repainted very thickley, so have no idea about brand and serial #.......regards wayne...... ------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 01:04:12 -0500 From: To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Masi GC available Message-ID: Precedence: list Reply-To: chasds@mindspring.com Message: 7
A well-known LBS here in SoCal has a very, very nice mid-70s California Masi GC for sale, 59cm, in the relatively rare dark-metallic-blue. Fischer crown. It looks completely original to me, even down to the wheels, with the light Martano rims complete with stickers. It's very rare to find the original wheels on these things.
I must be frank and say I have not looked it over with a microscope, but I can tell you this much: it is very, very clean. If it was my size, I'd have bought it instantly and not told a soul about it.
This is one of those unusual Cali GCs with just the size stamped on the bb shell. No serial number, no prefix, no nothing. I've seen a few of these now...Brian Baylis suggested to me once that these may have been "off-the-books" frames from Carlsbad or elswhere, made by staff for themselves or friends..beyond that, who knows?
I can tell you that the seat-lug has the window in the rear, and the short tang on the seat-tube, which means it's a cast-lug bike, which means that it's almost certainly a California bike, and probably made in 1975 or so.
The owner of the shop, Bill Ron, thinks it may be italian, but I don't think so. Did Alberto have access to the cast lugs in the mid-70s, and was he exporting bikes with the Cali Masi graphics, violating the licensing? I doubt it.
Removing the fork to examine what's stamped on the steerer tube might shed more light on the exact origins of the frame. Bill has said he might do that when he has time.
Whatever the exact provenance of the bike, it is a *beauty* and if it would fit you, you should call Bill right now before it's gone and just buy it. I was quoted $1500 plus shipping on the bike. I don't know how firm that is, but I think it's worth it, if it fits you.
No guarantees of anything expressed or implied, any emptor should observe the usual caveat...even though everything I've said here is accurate, so far as I know.
I just thought the bike might find a good home with someone here on the list.
Bill Ron Racing Cycles in Redondo Beach: 310-540-2080. Bill's a good guy but he doesn't have endless time to chat about the bike. Call him only if you're serious about it. Mention my name if you like, but *only* if you're serious. Otherwise he'll blame me for wasting his time.. Don't leave a message and expect him to call you back long-distance either; it's not worth it to him. Just catch him there. Noon-6 weekdays, PT.
For whatever it's worth, if I get static from Bill because any CR listers have abused his good nature, I will never again out a local bike.
Good luck.
Charles Andrews Los Angeles ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:19:22 -0800 From: Jay Sexton To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Stashes was pegoretti bits Message-ID: <3E1D146A.10102@sonic.net> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8
e-ritchie writes:
"but it's all hidden away and taken out of the mainstream like dale, i too have stashes, and multiples of stashes... some are piled onto other stashes. there really is no shortage at all.
Well comon yuse guys, kick down! How much stash do you really need?
Jay Sexton Sebastopol, CA
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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:25:14 -0800 From: Jay Sexton To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Cirque du cyclisme Message-ID: <3E1D15CA.1050301@sonic.net> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9
Dale, Please enlighten me as to what cirque du cyclisme is. Sorry if y'all have been over this before, but it is new to me. Thanks Jay Sexton Sebastopol, CA
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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:35:12 -0700 From: Chuck Schmidt To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Cirque du cyclisme Message-ID: <3E1D09E5.70FB08E0@earthlink.net> References: <3E1D15CA.1050301@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net Message: 10
Jay Sexton wrote:
>
> Dale,
> Please enlighten me as to what cirque du cyclisme is. Sorry if y'all
> have been over this before, but it is new to me.
Chuck Schmidt SoPas, SoCal
. ------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 03:20:18 EST From: Bikerdaver@aol.com To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Was mildly odd Campagnolo brake calipers, Now Brakeset Authenticity Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 11
Hello- All this talk of the non-super record "super record" brakes brings up a brakeset authenticity issue that I have not seen discussed on CR list before. What I am referring to is the rather common, yet hardly ever acknowledged custom of (mostly) Italian manufacturers equipping a bike with full Campy NR or SR OEM grouppo save the brakeset. Here are some examples that come to mind: 1969, 70, 71, 72(maybe) Cinelli SC complete NR except Universal Super 68s. 1973, 74(maybe) Mondia complete NR except for Dura Ace brakeset. 1971, 72, 73, 74(maybe) Schwinn Paramount, NR except Weinmann C-pulls. 1977 (maybe others) Colnago Supers w/SR except Modolo Master Pro brakes 1981, 82 (maybe) Rossin w/SR except for Galli Criterium brakeset. 1980ish Ciocc Compezzione(sp?) w/SR except Modolo Kronos brakeset. Please pardon me if I my vintages are off by a year or two. Any way you get the point. I don't know how many early 1970 Cinelli and Mondia I have seen that have had their brakeset switched out to Campy. There's a good chance that several people on this list even have this switch-out on their bikes. I whole-heartedly agree with our group's ethos of originality and authenticity. This brakeset issue seems to have dropped below our radar. Why is it even important? Authenticity of a bike is its Spirit, its mojo, its "sexiness", its bloodline. I believe the folks at Cinelli and Colnago spec'd out their bikes with non-campy brakes for conscious and well though out reasons. Whether it was economic or based on astrology or whatever; its the bike's Authenticity. Obviously, companies like Colnago and Rossin could have easily spec'd Campy SR brakes,,,,,,,but they didn't. To be honest, I don't believe their reasons for doing this matters a whole lot. I mean who am I, let alone who are we, to tell Ernie C. which way he should have dressed out his bikes in the late 70s? Long live authentic uniqueness. Long live not blindly going along with the pack. Long live non-campy OEM brakesets and their mojo! OK, thats my rant for the month. Cheers, Dave Anderson Cut Bank MT
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:28:41 -0600 From: "Raoul Delmare" To: "Classicrendezvous" , "Steve Maas" Cc: "Bruce C."
Subject: Re: [CR]Chuck's Pasadena ride - Now Weinmann Rims Message-ID: <002f01c2b7da$a53eb920$7b257044@nebi.com> References: <41200314933920340@earthlink.net> <3E1D052D.1060202@nonlintec.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12
Hi ,
Had a wonderful time ( 18 months ago - could it have been that long ago ? ) with my brand-new-to-me , great-looking , 1973 Schwinn P10 Deluxe Touring 10-Speed . Before I bought it , the bicycle had just been overhauled & tuned-up . Which explained why it wouldn't shift properly , etc . Minor adjustments were fun to do .
The seller had been extremely careful to be extremely honest about nicks & scratches & cheap tires , etc . It looked fabulous to me . But the brand-new tires , inner tubes , & rim strips , really were cheap-cheap modern 27 x 1 & 1/4 inch .
The rims were ( & still are ) the correct original Weinmanns . Are these the same as the "Alesa" model rims that Hilary Stone is selling right now ?
These rims are easy to identify at a glance . When looking at them with tires mounted & ready to ride , the exterior of the rim , toward the spokes ( the inner part of the exterior , if you know what I mean ) , has a bump at each spoke nipple , and what I'll call very small shoulders where the sidewalls of the rim begin . Some people would say that these rims have dimples & shoulders . Actually I think that they are quite elegant looking , once you get used to them .
The point - These rims are NOT "hook bead" rims . These rims are NOT "straight side" rims . These rims actually flair-out just a little bit ! They allow the tire to slip off rather easily .
( ever blow a tire off of a 20" plastic "Tuff-Wheel" ?? but that's another story )
I played with my new bicycle all evening , and well into the night . By the time I got around to putting air into the tires , I'd forgotten what I knew about those rims . The cheap tires had something surprisingly large written on their sidewalls , like maybe 105 p.s.i . I can't remember what I put in them , but I had sense enough to check that the beads were
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