Re: [CR]Framebuilding as a craft

> > What defines a craftsman is the whole product that's produced
> > not just how pretty his filework is ... the lugs are just
> > a small part of the whole.
> >
> > Frame design counts. Brazing skill counts. Materials used
> > counts.
> >
>
> What defines a craftsman?
>
> As Brian stated, a artist and or craftsman needs to grow within the context
> of their work. The degrees of effort that go into achieving this can't be
> overlooked. Some craftsman say that they don't want to change, but are
> content to do the same thing over and over. Some qualify it further, to say
> that by perfecting their methods, and sticking with the same production, it
> allows them to create more cheaply for the masses. I don't respond to this
> lightly, but I can't much buy the logic. Those olden days, when people had
> the minds to honestly do this, are sadly over, and in their place has become
> lazyness, or the damn "fear factor", by which I mean the hesitation to step
> away from what one is known for and has been successful at, to try something
> new. I believe that it is now more human to strive for improvement.
> "Improvement" may not be some big thing that stands up and and slaps you in
> the face, it could be one millimeter one way or the other that it took years
> to understand. Religious texts say that the Buddha sat in front of a blank
> wall for seven years, then the "new and improved" man went on to appear to
> act like a idiot. My point is that it can be premature to simply draw
> inferences from looking at finished products. In the Buddha's case, it
> might have only been other "idiots" who could see what a monumental
> accomplishment had been achieved. There are indeed examples of great work,
> as Brian elicites in his thought provoking post, but doing great is a
> relatively easy accomplishment for some gifted (lucky) people. What's in
> the heart, and what about the amount of struggle that might be taking place,
> even if a completed work somehow appears lesser in degrees in comparison to
> some? Without knowing these factors, can you completely measure
> achievement only through the usual standards? Handmade work is the
> embodyment of many things. There are indeed sacrafices that have to be
> made to adhere to a concept that inspires someone to do it everyday. Not
> everyone has the luxury of a patron(s). Craftsman who feel the need to
> critique other peoples work, is it often because of some inadequacy that
> they perceive within themselves? Sure, sometimes a young person needs to be
> slapped upside the head, but even for the experienced, there can be twists
> and turns, sometimes blind alleys, but hopefully it all goes toward the
> direction of a better end, both for the maker and the customer. What is
> chosen to put in front of the public, the successes, the partial successes,
> the beginnings of a concept that may come to fruition only much later or is
> abandoned, there may not be a way to draw clear conclusions with regard to
> the comparative validity of these accomplishments or lack of, without
> knowing much more than what might be perceived by only looking at the
> finished product. There is often a bigger picture, and it can be very
> complex.
>
> My two yens worth .....
>
> Dennis Young
> Hotaka, Japan
>
>
> > What defines a craftsman is the whole product that's produced
> > not just how pretty his filework is ... the lugs are just
> > a small part of the whole.
> >
> > Frame design counts. Brazing skill counts. Materials used
> > counts.
> >
>
> > Neill,
> >
> > Very well said.
> >
> > One other tidbit I've noticed about bikes. A lot of what you get out of your
> > frame depends on how you set it up. I have several vintage Italian road
> > bikes that are set up as "city bikes" pretty much the way ones sees retired
> > racing iron being ridden by old men around the cafes of Europe. There are
> > lots of possibilities for bikes and only a very small percentage of them are
> > for racing. My racing days are over; I now ride strictly for fun and to be
> > with my friends. I enjoy the bike and the experience every single time.
> >
> > Parts selection can make a drastic difference in how a bike feels when you
> > ride it. A drastic example of this came to me when I set up my trike with a
> > double chainring and a 7 spd FW. It was very hard to ride and wasn't very
> > much fun. Then I decided to outfit it with a triple chainring and a little
> > lower gearing on the FW. Suddenly the bike was a blast to ride and I can
> > actually get it going pretty fast. It's still a chore to ride but it is fun
> > now that it has proper gearing for my needs. I was beginning to consider
> > selling it until I "rediscovered" it.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Neill Currie <neill1234@yahoo.com>
> > To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:28 PM
> > Subject: [CR]Frame quality issues.
> >
> >
> >> Well, thought I would just chime in here, having
> >> read the thread about "what makes for a great
> >> frame and why".
> >>
> >> I have frames that are made extremely well, in my
> >> opinion. Sometimes their aesthetic appeal jives
> >> well with my personal preferences, sometimes not.
> >> Sometimes these bikes ride very nicely,
> >> occasionally not. I have a frameset I made myself
> >> 18 years ago: super tight clearances, all
> >> internal cable routing.......the ride is tight,
> >> the aesthetic appeal to me is great, yet it is
> >> not a bike I would want to ride for more than,
> >> say, 50 miles.
> >>
> >> I have frames that are made not so well also.
> >> Sometimes though, these not only look very
> >> pleasing to my eye, but they have a very special
> >> ride, often for some particular set of reasons
> >> combining to produce that ride. I am thinking of
> >> an example in this case: a 1950's Peugeot. Not
> >> made with any great care or attention to detail,
> >> yet the combination of generous fork rake, pencil
> >> stays, long wheelbase etc, contribute to a
> >> magical ride that one would want to ride many
> >> extra miles on........and what better attributes
> >> could one get from a bike, I ask? It also cost me
> >> just $25.
> >>
> >> I have a bike that fits in a 3rd category too:
> >> pretty nicely made, though not GREAT. The
> >> downtube cracked and needed replacement after 3
> >> years of reasonably heavy use, and has been fine
> >> since. The paintjob and attention to detail on
> >> this bike attracts attention from others like
> >> almost no other bike however........and it has
> >> the most lively ride, with cat-like acceleration.
> >> This bike stands out in this respect.
> >>
> >> So, I say "love them all", at least the ones that
> >> you feel are deserving of your love, for all
> >> sorts of reasons. In my case there seem to be
> >> many more reasons to like different bikes for all
> >> sorts of different reasons, than there are
> >> reasons for being too discriminating. Appeal,
> >> interest, intended use, quality of construction,
> >> etc.....are all valid reasons for liking and
> >> preferring certiain bikes. Just don't overlook
> >> the real gem however, just because it doesn't fit
> >> your mindview or prejudice.