Mr. Maasland- No, I disagree. I feel it is you who is out of line here. I think your adamancy over a topic that is a lot more subjective than I feel you are willing to admit, makes my point clear. All I am saying is that even the "experts" can be wrong. And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if you have been wrong at least once in your life--I know that I have been--more than once too!
I think you create a problem where there should be none to begin with. The fact remains, so called "experts" are Only human. Last time I checked, humans can make mistakes. That's no biggy. After all, look at the outcome: The Rest of Us Will Have to Decide By Ourselves on What We Call Valuable in this biking hobby. Imagine that, Deciding For Ourselves!!!......Now THAT would be "out of line", as you say.
Personally, my idea of what I call valuable is probably off kilter with 25% of the CR list, but you don't see me telling others they are "out of line" for disagreeing with me. Heck, I am sure that I am not the only one on the CR list with that perspective, but I don't see anyone else trying to cram their idea of what they consider valuable and collectable down my throat. I am fanatic in my belief about Schwinns. I bet there are ton of folks out there who disagree with me. I feel pretty confident you won't find anybody on this list, let alone this world, who claims that I have tried to impose my Schwinn beliefs on them.
Last time I checked, this was a free country, free list, etc., etc., composed of freethinkers. And that's OK. Its No biggy. This biking hobby is filled with tons of people who have never even seen a Cinelli, let alone own one. And that's OK too! I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people are Cinelli-less by CHOICE. Yikes, imagine that!
I think the take-home message that I merely want you to consider is, that "experts" are merely people; people make mistakes. Other people get to decide on their own where or not they want to believe these "experts". No one has to wear the shackles of "orthodoxy". Should those that don't agree with all the "experts" be kicked off the CR list for saying so? <Dale, I will kill you if you say yes!>
Lastly, I hope you'll allow us to agree to disagree. And yes, after reading your reply to me, I am more convinced that there is a need for a grain of salt approach. Can we all go out for a spin now? Cheers, Dave Anderson Cut Bank-saw sun light earlier today-MT
****************************************************************************** ************************ Sputtering Steve Wrote:
You are out of line here! Andrea Cinelli as the son of Cino Cinelli and raised in the company, is indeed about as close as you can get to the "real" thing in Cinelli matters as is possible, but the badges are not "his" work. Never were. For that matter they weren't made by Cino either. They were made by a badge maker from Milan. In judging the badges, the sole true expert would therefore need to be the die maker who designed it.
Andrea's complete answer was abridged somewhat both by me and Dennis, however not in any significant way. As stated by Dennis, Andrea writes very clearly that he solely rules out the two smaller ones being originals (they were confirmed to be fakes.) For all the others, he is non-committal and with good reason. He states that there are certain ill-visible features that would seem to point one way or another for most of the others, but that closer inspection would be needed. He also states that his answer is based upon comparison to the originals that he still has in his possession (all of which are from the last production run!) So, his judgement was not 'wrong' at all.
There is no need for a grain of salt approach. I was actually quite impressed
that Andrea was even willing to make an attempt at recognition of the fakes.
He then firmly stated that two were assuredly fakes (they were) and others
dubious. For somebody to go out on a limb and take a stab in a situation where he
has everything to lose and nothing to gain is noteworthy. If anything, I
believe his reputation as an expert can only have been strengthened in this matter.
Steven Maasland