Steve Neago; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Steven Neago suggests that our detailed a la carte pricing from published lists exists evidences evil intent and "A more reasonable business policy would be to create a one price does all". His suggested approach is used by some others, but causes simple work to be priced too high to bear the overhead of the complex jobs. While such a system has a nice informal, friendly feel to it, details tend to fall through the cracks when there is no price associated with them. We prefer to give the customer full control of his options and costs with a detailed price list and written estimates are ALWAYS provided prior to commencing work.
Steve includes a long list of optional extras, some of them are clearly included in any CyclArt refinish at no extra cost. "Paint stripping and prep" for example. Some of he items he lists are legitimate extra cost options Abouve any "basic" finish but many are redundant and would never apply to any single job. The point he wants to make is "CyclArt adds numerous required charges that literally "nickel and dime" a customer with higher costs." ALL our charges are optional, with possible exception sales tax. I note that no one is claiming that costs were higher after our estimate.
If one asks by phone "how much for a paint job" they are asked for details of the frame type and their expectations, told that the entire price list is available on the website and a detailed discussion of their options often ensues, preferably with the Order Guide (price list) in front of them. Many of our customers fill in the Order Guide from the site, call with questions and to discuss options, then send the form in, getting exactly what they expect, at the price they worked out on the form.
We deliver orders every day for one color complete refinishes at our $145 base price. Our $145 finish includes complete removal of the old finish, an alignment crack and rust check and proper masking for trouble free assembly.
We use a state mandated waste disposal system that adds a $5 disposal cost for toxic paint waste. As some frames come in without paint, and we do not want to charge tax on the waste disposal cost, this a separate item that appears after the taxable line on our form. This is a practice common to auto body, tire and tires shops as well. So, this charge is sometimes added. Other than that, the only other "required" additional charge is sales tax for California residents only and package and shipping if needed. On paintwork we only charge sale tax on the material used. We always calculate this as 10% of the job cost before shipping or waste disposal. We based the 10% on total material cost verses gross income for a period many years ago. The percentage of material cost has risen, but we have held to 10%.
So, I can produce dozens of actual invoices that include only $145 for the refinish. Some will include $1.12 sale tax and/or $5 waste disposal fee. So, the bottom line is $145 to $151.12.
Steve's "experience" with us boils down to an email inquiry regarding a "basic" finish and a phone call regarding an accurate restoration with panels, chrome, decals, pinstripes and other requirements. I don't know why Steve can't distinguish between apples and cherries flambé.
I also remember a phone call in which he wanted to buy Raleigh decals. I explained that we do not sell the decals as such, we only apply them as part of refinish or touch-up, I explained our reasons for that. ~ (A whole 'nother topic well covered in the archives.)
Steve may have asked for a DECAL price list, which we do not have. There are simply too many variables to produce one. We have thousands of decals in stock, including both originals and reproductions. We also have hundreds of computer art files from which we can print decals as needed. At times we can print needed decals along with others to cut our costs. Occasionally we can get them from the manufacturer or distributor. New stock is always coming in. So we give a price on decals based on the exact circumstances required, but we always do so in writing and stick to our price once given. Because clients have varying expectations and budgets, we offer several options to give them control of the cost/accuracy tradeoffs. So while there is not a decal by decal price list, (if there were, it would be the size of a telephone book!) our price list DOES include these key options: 1. Completely accurate replacement of all decals at $90 and up. 2. Similar style - original or replica decal appropriate to the frame. Exact match to original not guaranteed $65 3. Apply decals supplied $35. 4. Custom decals starting at $45.
Here is what each of these items is about:
1. "Replace builder decals with accurate replicas. From $90" This selection is suitable for the most discerning collector because we use original decals when available, and precise replicas as needed. Perhaps I'll edit this line to "Replace builder decals accurately" to clarify the possibility that originals would be used... I'm trying to keep our order guide as concise as possible. When this option is selected, we include every decal on the bike including any dealer and component decals. The majority of the time, we can hold to the default $90. If however, the bike has decals we do not have, then our estimate will include the cost of creating them. Of course the client always has the option trimming the estimate back. Perhaps the original dealer sticker is not important, perhaps the white version in hand is OK instead of the yellow version we'd have to create. We discuss these things adjust as needed and get it all down on paper.
Not long ago, it was our policy that if a job required decals that we did not have art for, we would create the artwork at no charge, thereby filling obscure gaps in our decal files. We invested many thousands of hours in creating decals we have had little occasion to use. With the support of Lloyds and other decals sellers by some members of the CR list, we cut back such investment. Now, on the rare occasion that we need to create something we do not already have, the art charge is included. Occasionally we have been able to split the charges between several jobs but coordination of this is almost impossible. Sometimes, accurate recreation of obscure decals drives the cost of a completely accurate restoration up by as much as $400, but this is very rare now. We always determine these things before beginning work.
2. "Similar style - original or replica decals appropriate to the frame. Exact match to original not guaranteed $65" This option is a fixed price. The idea is to simplify ordering. Many clients just want the bike to look great and be properly identified and this fills that bill. In many cases, what they get will be exactly original decals because they are in hand. In other cases the main decals will be exact but obscure model names or proprietary tubing or other minor decals will be omitted. Sometimes the year of the decal may not exactly match the year of the frame. Almost always, the main logos are in the authentic letter style and an effort is made to get the decals as close to the original as we can while staying in that $65 budget. If the client has brought his bike to us in person, we pull the decal file on his brand and let him choose. Usually, the choice is left to us.
Steve Neago sees evil intent in all we do and has interpreted "Similar style" to be a slightly inaccurate representation of manufacturer trademarks in an effort to dodge trademark protection law. This fantasy of his seems based on the urban legend along the lines of "change the design 20% and you don't have to worry". Firstly, the legal test is not percentage of variation from the authentic but weather confusion between the original trademark and the variation exists. An example is the T-shirt company that did the Cinelli crest logo and substituted a "G" and a few changes to the flourishes making it "Ginelli." Cinelli's lawyers nailed them. Confiscation of goods and heavy fines were paid. CyclArt has never played this game. Our artwork is deadly accurate for option 1 and as accurate as we can be given the budget for option #2.
3. "Apply decals supplied $35" If the client already has decals we're glad to put them on. We sometimes adjust this price on the estimate, usually downward, if the decals are easy to apply.
Occasionally, this option creates problems for us when the client brings a bike in and then orders the decals himself. More often than not, there is a long delay if the decals ever arrive at all. Frequently, they are not as hoped when they do. We have some sway with manufacturers and frequently buy entire stocks of obsolete decals, but we have never found a reliable source for either original or replica decals and so continue to make our own, in-house for the vast majority of decals that we use.
4. "Custom decals, starting at $45"
Here's where the creativity starts to flow. This can be anything from the rider's name, to his company logo, a drawing he did by hand or on his computer, cartoons, photographs, maps, flowers, birds, fish, mountain climbers, leaves, snakes... anything goes.
Sometimes it is as simple as adding the rider's name. If there are other decals to be printed for the job, we often throw these in at no charge.
Occasionally, custom decals create beauty in the eye of the client and few others. We try to steer such projects toward more general appeal, but if the client is committed to a look that does not appeal to us after rejecting our suggestions, we'll execute to his wishes. Most of the time, we are able to prevent nice classics from becoming goofy customs. Take the guy who thinks that Kestrel's blocky logo looks wrong on their curvy frames a wants and elegant script. Looks better to us too... On the other hand, a guy who thinks his Masi GC has always looked too cluttered with decals and insists we leave some off... Looks like something is missing to us, and others might think we goofed... We do our best to steer the client to make good choices, and occasionally decline a job we don't like, but the personalities involved can make this tricky.
In Steve's case, I wish he would contact me directly, the next time he "wonders" about a CyclArt matter and does not post misleading and inflammatory posts to the CR list.
Jim Cunningham CyclArtist Vista, CA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Steve Neago Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 4:30 AM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]CyclArt Quality & Overcharge Concerns by Pergolizzi
I wonder if CyclArt is being selective on facts regarding "published prices" because these have not always been fully disclosed in the past. My past experience years ago with CyclArt regarding a frame repaint quotation was not the best. The initial "basic" email price from CyclArt at that time in no way resembled their far higher final price quotation by the end of the later telephone quotation. This is why I chose not to do business with CyclArt. It sounds like Pergolizzi had a similar experience like me with CyclArt on "floating prices". Fortunately, I did not experience Pergolizzi's pain in receiving a frame and paint job allegedly "damaged in shipping" according to CyclArt.
I know that CyclArt's quotation to me for a "basic" frame repaint included numerous additional charges not fully disclosed in their "basic" price at that time:
frame paint stripping & prep charges, head badge removal/reinstall charges, parts removal charges for only a headset frame alignment charges, frame minor ding charges, fancy lug charges, frame paint masking charges, fork painting charges type and color of paint charges, multiple layer paint spray charges, paint special application charges, decal purchase charges, decal application charges, pinstriping charges, multiple clear coat charges, packing and box charges, shipping charges, shop material charges, and a possible 10% undeclared miscellaneous charge on top of that!
After all of those charges, the CyclArt paint warranty was only for 3 months. The CR archives has documented some past concerns with CyclArt quality. Meanwhile, other CR members said they are completely happy with the quality of work performed by CyclArt.
Companies change pricing over time and CyclArt may have changed their policies, but I maintain that CyclArt adds numerous required charges that literally "nickel and dime" a customer with higher costs. A more reasonable business policy would be to create a "one price does all" instead of all these incremental charges. The bottom line is that the listed "basic" price is not what you will finish with because there may be numerous required additional charges disclosed on their website. This is why I purchased my own HVLP spray equipment to paint my frames for my projects!
CAVEAT EMPTOR regarding CyclArt!
Regards, Steve Neago
Cincinnati, OH
CR Listers,
RE: Pergolizzi's post at the bottom of this one:
At CyclArt the customer is always in control of his costs. While it is possible that we may recommend services not anticipated in a phone estimate before the frame is seen, we never proceed without clear authorization of our estimates, which state clearly that they will not be increased by more than 10% without prior notice. We have many options for those who wish to adhere to a budget. All our prices are published on our printed order guide and on our website.
There was no alignment charge on John's Drysdale, and it was not powdercoated. As was clearly explained to him in writing at the time, the frame had horrific, deep rust pitting overall which had been hidden under several layers of brushed on paint. We increased the estimate $125 over the first telephone estimate (frame unseen) to cover the hours of work it takes to fill deep pitting while retaining all those nice crisp lug edges. We stripped the old paint, removed the rust, treated the surface with a rust inhibitor then applied primer and several coats of Imron. We then applied putty to some of the worst areas. This is where the job stopped when John cancelled the order. Had we proceeded, all of the applied material would have been hand sanded to the surface of the steel leaving the filler material only in the pits and the frame ready for primer and paint.
We include an alignment check at no charge with all frame refinishes. In the case of John's Drysdale, the bottom bracket had been so badly abused that I recommended it be tapped and faced. ($25) Not only would that be a good thing for proper assembly, but since our alignment fixture holds the frame by the bottom bracket it would insure that we could get an accurate alignment reading on the thrashed frame. These charges were also in the written estimate sent for approval. I have copies of our estimates and correspondence with John that clearly spell all this out.
Exchanges with Pergolizzi have usually involved a phone estimate followed by receipt of a frame that is in much worse shape than his description. John then tries to bully us into holding to the phone estimate while performing all the additional work.
I'm sorry to be on John's BS list as I enjoyed his enthusiasm in many of our dealings. Two years ago I politely declined to accept another job he wanted to send because of our previous difficulties and a long overdue balance. Since then he has been on the warpath, misrepresenting this situation and blowing it all out of proportion. I've had someone "drop a dime" to listen to his rant about us and it is all nonsense based on John's frustration with not being able to bully me and fabrications from the rumor mill.
Let's get back to fun with old bikes.
Jim Cunningham CyclArtist Vista, CA
Pergolizzi's Post:
B.S.!
Then why did you try to charge me $125.00 just for "alignment" on my
Drysdale you put the bum powdercoat finish on?. And don't forget the pink
bondo you schmeared on top of the powder coat. Oh yea, you "had to tap and
face the bottom bracket first.
B.S.!
John T.Pergolizzi
New York City
There's new oats and there's used oats. We all know what used oats are
called.
And don't no one ask for apologies cause they ain't come'n. Call me and
I'll give you a real earful about Cunningham. Best dime you'll ever drop.
That will be the most expensive $145.00 you'll ever spend. But then again,
what is an education worth?