e-RICHIE,
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing, or just responding to Brian's note (I think probably the latter). I just wanted to say that when I used the phrase "zen-like state", I mean it in the typical American pop-culture usage of being totally immersed in whatever activity you're participating in to the point of detachment and blissfully unaware or unconcerned with outside factors. I have only a passing knowledge of Zen (with a capital Z), definitely not enough to actually relate it to framebuilding.
I've noticed from some of your posts that you're interested in Japanese culture and philosophy and how it informs their arts and crafts. I recently read a book (Lost Japan by Alex Kerr) that I'd like to take the liberty of recommending to you. It discusses Zen (and coincidentally to another CR thread 'wabi' (rustic simplicity)) in relation to traditional Japanese arts, among many other topics.
To the CR'ers - I know this post is off-topic but I've intentionally replied on list because I think it was a loss when Richard stopped posting here because some people couldn't see the relevance of his interest in Steinway pianos (for example) and how it relates to his work with bicycles. As I told my girlfriend, it's as if Jimi Hendrix (or Django Reinhardt,etc) was posting on a guitar listserv that viewing Picasso's Guernica influenced how he played the Star Spangled Banner and then some knucklehead posts "Hey, what's all this art crap. I came here to talk about guitars."
Of course this is the place to talk about 'what's the correct pulleys for a '75 Super Record derailleur', but I think there's more to classic bikes than that and there's room here for it. I hope this will encourage e-Richie, Brian, et al to post more frequently about whatever they choose and if you disagree, I hope you'll let it pass and just press delete occasionally. And if Dale disagrees, well... his house, his rules and I'll shut up.
Thanks for listening,
Taz Taylor Atlanta, Georgia (and hey maybe with more e-ritchie posts, I'll stop with the economics crap)
we interupt the regularly scheduled programing...
baylisimmo, i don't see the connection with "zen" and building that you reference here so i went back to the archives and pulled this post from ? years ago. here it is: ----- ----- this, from my beautiful wife deb, a longtime practicing Zen Buddhist: "In its simplest form, Zen, as a religion, is to 'pay attention', meaning 'pay attention to the present moment'. So if you are paying attention while filing lugs into intricate shapes, that's Zen."
me, i'm a jewdist, so i make my own rules. because i think about frames as well as make them, my thought on this issue is that a frame is a unit, a life form if you will. i see the work going into making a lug, or refining a lug, or adding adornment to a lug as part of the process rather than 'the' process. in essence, for me, all the energy spent on creating any one detail of a frame should be spread to the making of it in its entirety. the lugs are not the frame. the geometry is not the frame. the alignment is not the frame. the material is not the frame. the frame is the frame. ----- ----- to wit, i don't see the connection between "enlightenment" and output. in fact, i don't think it's necessarily tangential to commerce either. e-RICHIE chester, ct and chuckie - i missed you!
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:38:03 GMT brianbaylis@juno.com writes: Taz,
There are a few things that I must correct in terms of what you understand regarding the time it takes to build a frame. The build times of various builders are not "standarized". There seem to be two basic and distinct catagories. The typical effecient long time professional framebuilder is shooting for a 15 to 20 hours MAXIMUM build time. The are lots of ways to achieve this using "modern" framebuilding parts and methods, even amongst lugged steel builders. A feame is generally constructed in a 2.5 to 3 day period.
The other catagory, which is not well recognized, are in fact the "art builders" whose general production takes AT LEAST 60 hours to complete; and can often reach 80 hours and over for something custom designed and unique. I can rarely even get in that much effort over the period of a month, even if I had nothing else to do. It is not routine work and requires motivation and a focused mental approach. The methodology and the primary purpose of each of these catagories of frames/framebuilders differs as much as the build time does. And there are in fact a few "Zen-like" builders out there. It IS NOT about the money. That is not to say that there is no money involved; there most certainly is, but these builders have other sources of higher monitary returns per hour that the framebuilding. These people severly limit their production and produce special works in small quanitity, as opposed to trying to make a more profitable product in enough volume to make a good living. A more comprehensive explaination may be forthcomming from me on this, but it is to appear on the framebuilders' list. These distinctions have existed for a long time, but the list of actual "zen-like" builders has dwindled to a fairly small number. I was just talking to Peter Johnson about this just last night. He plans to build about 4 per year.
So some of this does not fit with the traditional business/economic guidelines. Zen-like framebuilding is outside that box.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
I can dig the Zen thing; but mountain top cave framebuilding is out!