Mick,
Thank you for the additional information on Harry and Clauds first bronze fillet brazed frames. Taken with Hilary's post and others, I think it puts the historical context of bi-lam on a more accurate footing than before. I also enjoyed discovering some new facts.
As regards 'open season': Had I mistaken you for a grouse, I would have handled things somewhat differently. I do appreciate the effort you put into posts, which I find on-topic and consistently of interest. It takes time and effort to answer posts well, perhaps dig out the right mag, find the right page etc, and I think that if a poster gets the idea that every word, every coma, will be thrown back to haunt them, well, who will want to post anything? Having said that, folk must have the right to ask reasonable questions and even disagree.
There are quite a few folk on this list who I consider experts in their area, many others are very knowledgeable generally. I think it unwise to dismiss their views without proper consideration. We are all learners, I hope, and the man who never made a mistake, never did anything (Peter Duncan VCC).
It was June before I saw the May posts of the Bi-lam 'debate'. A bit one-sided I thought. I have read all your posts, David's, Stratton's, Richard et al. and the replies. Some thought bi-lam was lugless and sleeved. They now hear the sleeves are the bi-lams, so lugged and sleeved, like a lug extended Holdsworth or latin Hetchins, they are bi-lams too. They were left hanging with two conflicting models, the C+ and the Southern.
I know the subject was bi-lam, the historical context was just a frame around the picture, however I disagree with parts of both. It made sense to straighten the frame, before adjusting the picture. I hope this has been done in a constructive way, to help build the common knowledge.
On the web duff data is common and anecdotal stuff can be nonsense. Dodgy dates, misconceptions, words which have changed meaning etc. We try not to propagate myths, so have to question those things which jar with our existing concepts, because something has to be wrong.
> Finally to be perfectly honest most of those words I wrote where lifted word
> for word from old catalogues and the British cycling press. So you were really
> having a pop at Johnnie Dennis, Harry Rensch, FJCamm, HH England, George Pearson
Well, whichever of these people/corpses typed:
**********
...He first visited the Paris show in 1935... As soon as Harry returned he pioneered the welded frame in Great Britain... Claud Butler...started experimenting with welded frames in 1937...
As I said previously in my CR postings Claud and Harry were the UK pioneers in welded frame construction.
*********
Is in error, as recumbents were being welded in 1934, the Holds La Quelda was launched 1936 and from Hilary's post, who knows who may have a prior claim. However:
>Harry Rensch was the first with the mixture of welding and brazing which
>Claud butler later copied and coined the phrase "Bi-Laminated".
Now that is a different story.
Your own view has been clearly explained and I know is sincerely held. If I disagree then the onus falls on me to prove my case. Dale's rules preclude debates. So you can put yer feet up, grab a cuppa and I hope, consider the points I make. I plan to post the first bit on bi-lam on Sat.
Do bear in mind that I too have a library, but if you disagree with me, as you have every right to, it does not mean you are arguing with Sandy Holdsworth etc last time I checked he was still dead.
Norman Kilgariff (Glasgow, Scotland)
*************** in reply to *********
7. Bilames & My Previous Postings (Michael Butler) Date: 19 Jul 2004
I have finally got reconnected to the internet. Since I have been awa= y is seems to be open season on Mick Butler. I thought my previus pos= tings covered this subject sufficently and more to the point quoted the= important historical facts from the Cycling press.
Harry Rensch was the first with the mixture of welding and brazing whic= h Claud butler later copied and coined the phrase "Bi-Laminated"
Harry produced frames using this method prior to 1939 and used this met= hod of construction on the pre-war prototypes of the "Galibier" and "To= ur de france" Models. He was selling frames with this method of const= ruction in late 1938.
Hilary is correct in saying that the "Avant Coureur" was the first bi-l= aminated Butler in 48. As with so many things with Claud Butler's all= of this innovations came about due to the brillance of Stuart Purvis.
Claud Butlers first welded frame was produced in late 1937 and was disp= layed at his various shops during this period complete with his then nw= style of rear drop-out=2E=2E This model was the forerunner of the Mass= ed Start model which was introduced at the 1938 Earls Court cyling show.
Harry Rensch was making lugless frames from the start 1935/36 and they = are listed and illustrated in most of his pre-war catalogues.
Required reading "The Bicycle" November 17th=2E 1948 article by Johnnie= Dennis "The Welded Alloy Frame" the novelty paragraph which deals with= the introduction of welded frames to Great Britain.
I honestly thought I had dealt with this subject accurately. Firstly = I am no self proclaimed expert just an ordinary cyclists who has been c= ycling every day for more years than I can care to remember. Because = of my involvement with cycling you meet lots of interesting people who = are far more knowledgeable and who share their experiences Bill Grey, G= eorge Stratton, Jack Jones, Ken Bird and Titch Morris are just a few I = have had long conversations with regarding makers and framebuilders etc
Finally to be perfectly honest most of those words I wrote where lifted= word for word from old catalogues and the British cycling press. So = you were really having a pop at Johnnie Dennis, Harry Rensch, F=2EJ=2EC= amm, H=2EH=2EEngland, George Pearson. ************************************************
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