Mick, Just seen your post on the CB AC APRIL! 1948 Excellent find! very well done, this all adds to the knowledge.
You lost Internet access and came in part way through this thread. My first post was Sat 10th July. I would urge you to read the thread carefully, my posts and others, to minimise repetition.
Here is a quick resumé: I prepared 5 posts, 2 on the historical context, 3 on bi-lam proper, to be spread c1 week apart to give time for reflection etc. The first, on Sat 10 July took your 'historical context', showed it to be incorrect and suggested a possible cause of the error. Over the next week various US listees and an eminent Kiwi, focused on 'welding' aspects. The upshot was that it was unclear whether steel welding at this time was true welding or some sort of steel fillet brazing, hydrogen/oxygen, oxy-acetylene or other aircraft borne technique. However the 1934 recumbents and Holdsworths 1936 La Quelda (diamond frame) were steel welded. If we take your quote and replace the word 'welded' with 'low temp welded' aka 'bronze welded' aka 'bronze fillet brazed', then your quote appears to become correct. The second post tried to establish when Harry and Claud launched their first bi-lams. Yourself and Hilary tidied that up. I would now like to move on, but rather than having shoals of red herring swimming in, I will delay my start on bi-lam to handle the various points you are now raising, there's no rush.
Ref: Your last posting, first and last paras:
>...web site entirely devoted to the worship of Grubbs, Holdsworths etc >I ask is this just another case of blind devotion and obessiveness >to one make at the expense of all others.
My site tackles 3 marques, Grubb, Holdsworth and Claud Butler, the last being quite significant in this bi-lam thread. I don't think you will find any 'worship' anywhere. My favourite marque is Cinelli. I smashed mine in the 60's. I have one Holdsworth and one Jackson, that's it. Does that indicate obsession with Holds, CB and Grubb?
Before Michael Lebron bought his Holdsworth Cyclone D/L he sent pics and asked how much I would give for this frameset. I normally avoid these things, but responded 'a fish supper with 2 pickled onions', some worship, OK I'm Scottish but even so.
My site is a task I set myself and have often regretted. It is a data-bucket. I record as much accurate data as poss on these marques. I am not devoted to any of them, but I learn while researching, to varying degrees, on each. As my knowledge lies mainly in these marques, it should be no surprise to you if I quote from them. If I only knew about Uppadine's and Hateley's that's where my examples would need to be found.
I think you make the same mistake here that has misled you on bi-lamination. You create the erroneous notion of 'worship', which leads you onto 'blind devotion', nice one.
This bit should have been obvious. You quoted that Harry and Claud wre the UK pioneers of welding frames, machines being launched 1936 and 1938 respectively. Claud is one of my marques, and in fact the LAST of 'my 3' to start welding. Holdsworth launched one in 1936 and Grubb in 1934. What about the hundreds of other UK framebuilders? From Hilary's post, there is every chance that somebody else pre-dates them all, this would discredit my CB marque. This is hardly to the expense of another marque, indeed, one would benefit.
In fact our investigation discredited neither Harry nor Claud, but instead of 'welding' it appears to be 'bronze fillet brazing' they pioneered. A simple correction and we move on. However, my motivation for correcting errors is really a red herring, correcting mis-information is the issue here, so folk are not misled.
You say: >I came in for a lot of stick on this posting most of it >very abusive and off list so I am touchy on this subject.
That's a pity, and of course this abuse doesn't show on-list. What did show were some pretty heavy responses to folk who were asking fair questions. That no doubt fuelled the off-list mail, it's a vicious circle, and humour often travels badly.
>One of my original Paris frames was even ridiculed....just >look at the heavy bi-laminates just like French knickers.
ah, a fellow anorak! "You can do anythin' but lay offa my blue suede shoes" But this is good, firstly my ex-wife is French and believe me there's nothing wrong with a pair of French knickers. And heavy plate sleeves, that's good too.
>When I was talking of welded and bi-laminated frames >I was referring to the conventional idea of a traditional >diamond bike frame.
People can only go by what you actually write. Later modifications and corrections are fine, but cannot be slipped in and back-dated on the quiet. My analysis is based on the statements you actually made in May, you don't need to correct this one now, we have found the 'welded' issue and fixed it.
>How the hell a virtually one off like the welded Grubb recumbent
>got into the debate beggars belief. To me its like bringing the Hen
>& Chickens, Facile, Kangaroos and Crypto Bantams in. All of which went up a =
>blind alley and have nothing to do with conventional frame evolution and
>development. The one thing that these have in their favour was that=
>they were manufactured in huge numbers compared to the Grubb recumbent.
Duh, forgive me if I am being a bit thick here, but you say: "Claud and Harry were the UK pioneers in welded frame construction" giving 1938 and 1936 as their launch years. A 1934 WELDED Grubb frame appears, but we should ignore it as it's a recumbent and few were sold? If Roger Bannister ran the first 4 minute mile on the 5th of June and I do it 50 times on the 6th of June, he was still a pioneer, production levels are irrelevant. So that just leaves recumbent.
On what grounds do you ignore the Holdsworth La Quelda, (diamond frame) launched in 1936? (It's rhetorical).
>My point was that the welded traditional style lugless frames was in co=
>mmon usage on the continent in 1935 especially in France. And that Ha=
>rry Rensch pioneered but maybe not introduced this type of frame to the=
> UK. He certainly was the first to make and sell these welded frames =
>in large numbers closely followed by Claud Butler. I am sure this goe
>s for Bi-laminated frames as well. Everyone I know in cycledom thinks=
> and says the same.
Really? I must have missed all those statements, on what dates did you say these things? so I can check the archive. And everyone you know in cycledom is forgetting la Quelda again, 2 years ahead of Claud.
With all this ducking and diving you are missing the point. The key is BRONZE welded, LQ and the others were steel welded. The Continental machines were probably steel welded, LQ certainly was until 1940, it is the bronze fillet brazing that they appear to have pioneered. Change 'welded' to 'bronze fillet brazed' and the statement appears to be right. Alternatively, remove the word 'the' from "...were the UK pioneers in..." and that's right too. Three letters can make a hellova difference, the most notorious are "I do".
>I am no expert just an ordinary cyclist with 46 years riding experience
Nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. The ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic was built by professionals (Buckminster Fuller). We are all learners, it's not about expertise, just about getting it right if we can, it's not easy.
Could I suggest, if you have no more questions, that as the historical context is now fixed, we move on. The bi-lam issue is far more interesting albeit more demanding.
Norman Kilgariff (Glasgow, Scotland)
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