Riccardo-san:
How can you call something a moot point and then follow up with exactly the same point? Calling it "moot" says that the point has no practical significance, so in some sense I suppose we can call CR a moot point. But, while I give you credit for putting it much more concisely than I did, we are both ultimately saying that the "American" component of the Masi story is what makes the bikes singularly appealing to many US collectors.
My speculation on the hypothetical appeal of a bike that is physically the same as a Cal-Masi, but that didn't carry with it the whole American story is just that - speculation. It is not unlike the old SNL bit "What If?" What is Naploleon had a Piper Cub at the Battle of Waterloo? We can't say, because that's not how it happened. But unlike thought experiments pertaining to the truly absurd, I (naively?) believed that there might be a shred of value to be derived from considering what you have left when you take the Cal out a Cal-Masi. But I imagine that this has been gone over ad nauseum on CR, and it has nothing to do with fact or history and leans much more toward that mushy thinking that leads to endless discussions about Mojo. (Which is, by the way, much like obscenity... "I can't define it, but I know when I see it.)
Tom Dalton
Bethlehem, PA
tom's text, snipped here, speaks volumes:
"If Masis had been made in Ireland, instead of Carlsbad, and if they were EXACTLY the same as those we see from Carlsbad, they would be less sought after."
this is a moot point; the bike boom occurred here,
in the usa, in the 70s. that is why these brands
are "hot" now.
e-RICHIE
chester, ct
That is a thought provoking speculation that you pose, Tom. One thing though, quality hand made goods, in this case bike frames, that are made in a spirit of creativity and attention to detail, are generally going to pick up some influence from their country of origin. So, I don't think that your scenario in it's pure form is quite feasable. Perhaps if you imported Mr. Baylis (we might have him on our 'Lucky Charms' cereal box now!) and the rest of the crew from the US to Ireland, then you could get exact copies of what the US made Masis looked liked. With Irish workers, you have to figure that there is at some point at least going to be an Irish Shamrock on the downtube, that will probably add to the romance and desirability when looked at from abroad. Whether the degree of interest would match up to what is happening currently with the Carlsbad bikes, your "old world frame shop" at a place where they are doing the 'surfers's stomp' on the beach, the anomaly is well taken and the picture very endearing, it must be a factor in the desirability for US purchasers.
Dennis Young Hotaka, Japan
Dennis,
You wrote:
"If Carlsbad Masis had been made in Ireland and few exported to the US, how much more would US bidders be willing to pay?"
I do get your point, which is that the sources of the desirable French and Italian bikes/parts are a long way from Japan, and unlike in the US, there is never was a lot of the stuff exported to Japan. I can't imagine what I'd do to get my NR/SR parts fix if I couldn't buy the "old, used junk" off of ex-racers at the local swap meet. Pay high prices on Ebay, I guess.
However, there are some ideas I want to through out here, and since it is both Masi-related highly speculative I will turn off my computer and come back in a couple of days to see how much chatter it generates. If Masis had been made in Ireland, instead of Carlsbad, and if they were EXACTLY the same as those we see from Carlsbad, they would be less sought after. This would hold true even if only a small percentage of the total Irish production ever made it to the US. If they were made in Ireland, no matter how well, they would just be "fake" non-Italian examples of yet another Italian brand. The primary reason Masi has such brand recognition among US collectors, is that it blends the exotic Italian heritage with a story we can relate to, which is the establishment of an old-world frame shop in the new world. Add to this that Masi really took a traditional Italian product, and added that obsessive level of finish that was born on our shores... and of course there is the innovation of investment casting, which I would think most CR types would actually hold against the brand. If Masi had never come to the US, the bikes would not be any higher on the US collector radar than Colnago or Gios. That is, they'd be highly regarded, but not the basis of a cult. In fact, even though the 1970's Italian examples seem to generate less CR excitement than the US ones, I'd bet that they'd be less popular still if the US ones had never been made.
Just my opinion,
Tom Dalton Bethlehem, PA
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