Your perspective is a bit different from that of most of us, Steve. I was writing from the standpoint of a domestic cyclist and shopman who can't even spell Italian names right, not someone who makes regular trips to Italy and is used to dealing with manufacturers and large suppliers. We paid duty on the frames when we brought them across the border because we brought in a significant quantity for resale. At one time, I was making road trips to Montreal at least once a month. The frames, paint jobs and components were a real value compared to what we would have paid for similar items here in the States. Dealing with the border crossings and customs brokers was a real pain, but the value made it worthwhile economically, and we had to keep our prices low enough so our customers wouldn't just drive up to Montreal themselves! It is the closest major city to Burlington, after all.
I do apologize for generalizing about the higher-end Italian builders. Each is unique and should be considered thusly. However, your comments about Marinoni's workmanship left me scratching my head. So I got out my bike and looked it over really carefully. I did spot a very tiny pinhole at one of the dropouts, and a few imperfections that might show up as filemarks if I stripped off the paint, but this is an extremely fine bike that rides like a dream and has held up over many, many miles of solid riding. Reading your post, one gets the idea that the bike is the product of a third-rate builder. I believe this was the point of the original post that started this thread. Here is an extremely fine bike that is disparaged by the literati. However, those of us who keep our noses more horizontal found Marinonis to be beautiful bikes that ride like the wind at prices that left us enough for some decent tubies and a nice component group. I sold the frame from my California Masi to raise the funds to buy my Marinoni back in '82 and, while I wish now that I still had the Masi, I would do it again if it were the only way to get this bike.
Steve Barner, proud Marinoni owner in Bolton, Vermont
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:15:45 +0000
> From: themaaslands@comcast.net
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org (Classic Rendezvous)
> Subject: Re: [CR]Marinoni
>
> Steve Barner wrote (much snipped)
> > I think Guiseppe (Pepe) Marinoni is one of the least recognised of the
great builders of the '70s-'80s.
> His name is Giuseppe with the i before the u and his nickname is Beppe not
Pepe.
> > His connections in Italy, where he raced as a youth,
> gained him access to materials and components at "insider" pricing, which
he
> proceeded to pass along to his customers in the form of very afffordable
> pricing.
> He had no 'insider' connections, he simply was able to deal with the
Italians in their own language. There is no "insider" pricing. He also
benefitted from the fact that most Italian companies did not have official
distributors in Canada, so he was able to purchase direct, a luxuxry not
allowed to most American builders. Furthermore, he generally purchased
everything in Lira instead of US dollars as insisted upon by most Americans.
With the insistence on buying in dollars, most Italians simply added in a
large devaluation and exchange rate cushions into their prices(remember that
in the 80's Italy had double-digit inflation and there was considerable
uncertainty of the lira).
> > His frames exhibited workmanship that was at least the equivalent of the
> Colnagos, Bassos, DeRosas and other high-end production Italian bikes of
the
> period.
> I have owned more than my share of his bikes, most of which were
custom-made and while I agree his bikes were and still are amazing values,
his workmanship has never come close to matching De Rosa's or pre-1975
Colnago's. You could however compare them to a Basso. Another interesting
point is that two custom-made bikes that I bougth from him two years apart
in the early 80's (with the exact same measurements being supplied to him!)
turned out with different geometries. They did however resemble precisely
the measurements of his 'stock' frames made in the same year. It was my
experience that the only 'custom' adjustments that he made were personal
touches such as initials in fork crowns or seatstay caps.
> > The favorable exchange rate also worked to make his frames an
exceptional value, even after the duty was added.
> I bought my Marinoni frames in Canada without there being any duty to
contend with. This goes to show just how much more competititve the Canadian
market was and apparently still is as his frames were considered 'good'
deals, never 'exceptional'.
>
> > Marinoni had all the same attributes of the revered Italian builders,
with a few exceptions. First, he actually did the work. Did Ugo or Ernesto
braze their own harps in the '80s? I don't think so.
> Please read any of many many posts in the archives and you will then know
that Ugo, to this day, builds frames every day. Furthermore, not a single
frame leaves the De Rosa shop without at least one member of the family
checking it out. Marinoni is not able to say this and hasn't been able to
say so for quite some time.
> > Second, you could buy your frame directly from the builder,
> or from a shop who worked with the builder.
> Anybody can go to any semi-industrial Italian framebuilder directly and
buy a bike. This holds for all the builders mentioned by Steve: De Rosa,
Colnago, Guerciotti, Basso and any number of others.
> > Third, Marinoni has stayed personally connected to racing. He actually
won his age category a few years ago in the Mt. Washington Hill Climb!
> This is totally meaningless because at best this could possibly help with
designing one frame size. Far more meaningful is building bikes for a full
team of pros accustomed to riding top of the line bikes.
>
> > I sometimes think that if Marinoni had moved back to Italy and doubled
or
> tripled his prices, he would have captured the mystique that we tend to
> reserve for those who rip us off.
> Builders like Marinoni are a dime a dozen in Italy. Most every larger town
or city in Italy has its local builder offering bikes similar in quality and
content to the big-name builders but at budget prices. With his same
marketing and without patronage of a top rider or pro team, Marinoni would
never have been able to capture any more mystique than any of these other
fine builders. He would also have lost the comparatively large 'captive'
Canadian market that he 'owns'. The last comment about ripping people off is
uncalled for as it is the consumers who are solely responsible for this.
Consumers buy into mystique instead of relying on past experience of their
predecessors. It is also exceedingly rare that it is the framebuilder that
'earns' the big bucks. Most of the money from the high-end bikes and frames
goes to pay for costs (advertising, pro team sponsoring,
distributor/importer/wholesaler/dealer mark-up, trade show costs, brand
protection... etc) that are brought on directly by consumers.
> I have recently bought three different Italian bikes from small builders
that remain unknown to the general public: a Soncini, a Marnati and a
Zanardi. Each one of these easily outshines the best Marinoni that I have
ever seen and likely most De Rosa's. The Soncini and Zanardi have some build
details that make them unique and I dare say 'special' to any CR member.
Marnati on the other hand is one of the many ghost-builders to the pros.
These are the framebuilders who have long been building the frames under the
pros without it being known or acknowledged. I have received confirmation
that Marnati built many if not most Gios and many Bottecchia pro team bikes.
The pros know and trust him and would support him in making the jump to the
'big leagues.' This is precisely how Masi, De Rosa, Cinelli, Pogliaghi and
Colnago all initially made their names. Marnati has apparently decided that
he is better off staying where he is. His bikes perhaps do not have much
mystique to the uninitiated, but loads of 'mojo'!
> --
> Steven Maasland
> Moorestown, NJ