[CR]Italian Bike brand...Patelli

"When I get fork blades from True Temper or whomever, they come straight. They have to be bent to offset the dropouts. The amount that chainstays and seat stays need to bend in order to move the dropouts 5mm is far less than fork blades are bent to get 40mm of rake in the fork. In short, it's harmless..."

i feel differently. fork blades are designed in guage, taper, and overall length to be bent. chainstays are not. also, the original question is rooted in taking a finished "unit" and bending it. fork blades are typically bent as blades and matched in pairs to create the "unit". if you took an older chainstay and "s-ed" them as modern chainstays are supplied, that would be a different story. (i told the original pos-er offlist that...) i would steer clear of the re-worked vintage frame that this thread centers around (...unless the bridges were removed first, the frame spread, and the bridges replaced a 'la brian-issimo's post). e-RICHIE chester, ct ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:24:45 -0400 From: LouDeeter@aol.com To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Now--Politics on the List? Message-ID: <1C335012.659F20CB.0269AA25@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 5

Ted, I thought we had an agreed to protocol that we keep our politics off-list. I can't find where your comments add anything positive to the classic bicycle collecting subject. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL

"Ted E. Baer" <wickedsky@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>2.  When our jack-ass of a pResident led us into a war
>on Iraq (that was in no way justified, and has since
>been proven to be 100% inaccurate,) the same thing
>happened again.
>
>But if this pResident
>gets re-elected, my guess is that all vintage stuff
>will all be snapped up.
>
>3.  But we're not out of it yet.  Now the pResident is
>considering war with Iran and who knows who-else.
>
>Ted Baer
>"Moving out of this country for four years if the
>"chimp" gets re-elected."
>Palo Alto, CA
> ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:28:42 -0400 From: unreceived_dogma@mindspring.com To: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: revise finely made objects; was [CR]Frame integrity Message-ID: <E1BnJwx-0002zG-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6

How about turning the Mona Lisa's wry smile into a politician's fat grin? Will that do?

Michael Lebron NYC ----------
>From: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Frame integrity
>Date: Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 8:48 AM
>
>
>snipped/cut:
>"If someone spreads the rear stays on a vintage 60s/70s frame - Columbus
>tubing - to accommodate a 7/8/9 speed modern cassette, how much is the frame
>integrity compromised?"
>Greg arnold nyc
>
>
>my 2 cents is: you "can" do it because the material is
>fairly malleable (sp?) but going from 120mm to 130mm
>is on the extreme of what's recommended. if you owned the
>frame, i'd say don't revise it. if you're buying a frame that's
>been revised, i'd say - if you really love it, get it. if not, pass.
>
>i think spreading rears is over-rated (to allow older frames to
>use modern parts...) and i wish i could think of an appropriate
>analogy to other finely made objects,
>but - alas - i cannot.
>e-RICHIE
>chester, ct
>
>
>
> ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:40:03 -0400 From: greg arnold <greg@nofatcomm.com> To: <unreceived_dogma@mindspring.com>, "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: revise finely made objects; was [CR]Frame integrity Message-ID: <BD2414A3.7F1A%greg@nofatcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <E1BnJwx-0002zG-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7

Finally some political vintage bike commentary that gives me a fat, wry, grinning chuckle!

Greg arnold nyc
> How about turning the Mona Lisa's wry smile into a politician's fat grin?
> Will that do?
>
> Michael Lebron
> NYC
> ----------
>> From: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Subject: Re: [CR]Frame integrity
>> Date: Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 8:48 AM
>>
>
>>
>> snipped/cut:
>> "If someone spreads the rear stays on a vintage 60s/70s frame - Columbus
>> tubing - to accommodate a 7/8/9 speed modern cassette, how much is the frame
>> integrity compromised?"
>> Greg arnold nyc
>>
>>
>> my 2 cents is: you "can" do it because the material is
>> fairly malleable (sp?) but going from 120mm to 130mm
>> is on the extreme of what's recommended. if you owned the
>> frame, i'd say don't revise it. if you're buying a frame that's
>> been revised, i'd say - if you really love it, get it. if not, pass.
>>
>> i think spreading rears is over-rated (to allow older frames to
>> use modern parts...) and i wish i could think of an appropriate
>> analogy to other finely made objects,
>> but - alas - i cannot.
>> e-RICHIE
>> chester, ct
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

Greg Arnold Senior Partner No Fat Communications 12 West 37th Street New York, NY 10018 http://www.nofatcomm.com

212-629-7595 greg@nofatcomm.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:21:07 -0700 From: "Scott Alan Smith" <giantleap@peoplepc.com> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <airart4@juno.com> Subject: [CR]WTB: NISI 32 hole rims Message-ID: <000501c46f41$e9e8c500$7fb85142@HAL9000> References: <20040720.194342.-785155.4.airart4@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8

Hi all, I'm looking for a pair of NISI Mercurio Oro 1977 silver rims. BC had these in abundance a while ago and I'm hoping someone squirreled a pair away.

Thanks!

Scott Smith Van Nuys- on- the -LA River

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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:50:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> To: olyoop@comcast.net, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Seeking Romic decals for a kid's bike, described herein Message-ID: <20040721165041.40656.qmail@web81002.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <072120041616.9783.40FE96EC000DFADF0000263722007340769F0101970401@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 9

I have two Romics myself, a 24" Junior road bike I bought for my daughter when she was young and a custom built track bike. Odd thing is Ray Gasorowski, the late builder of Romic, never liked toe clip overlap - I had to convice him that the slight overlap inplied by my preferred frame angles was not a problem on a track bike. So the overlap on yours must have been dictated by some other design element. I've heard that Ray's son is still building Romics, or at least was until recently in Houston, maybe the same site. If you can find him, he may be using the same decals, although I hear the bikes bear no resemblance to what his father used to build.

Regards,

Jerry Moos Houston, TX

olyoop@comcast.net wrote: Greetings: I'm seeking two Romic roundel decals and two of the multi-color rings (featuring a variation on the world champion colors) that encircled the seat tube of those bikes from Houston. These are to be used on an interesting child's bike with 600c sewups that I recently purchased for my nine-year-old daughter. It appears to date from 1975, to judge from the patent date on the rear NR derailleur. It's champagne in color, and weighs approximately 17 pounds (substantially lighter than my 19-pound Masi fixed gear, anyway). Construction details range from very nice (beautifully filleted rear brake bridge, for example, and apparently high-quality paint for the era) to crude (the seatlug's edges are hugely inconsistent). Odd too is the design's overall balance. The front center is EXTREMELY tight--the inevitable result, I suppose, of providing a proportional top tube for someone who's four feet tall. Never mind toeclip overlap; this bike very nearly has pedal overlap. I sucked in my breath and gave a lot of overly-technical warnings when offering it to my oldest child, who heretofore has ridden only a leaden mountain bike or on the back of our tandem. Meanwhile, the rear stays are long enough to provide a fist's worth of clearance between tire and seattube. Did Romic figure that a tiny wheelbase would be too dangerous? My daughter is thrilled with her new acquisition, and placed second among girls in her age group at the local crit in her first outing--all without ever shifting once from the 36x18 gear (with 600c wheels, remember) in which she started. She's asked for brakes that she can actually activate, however, and prudence dictates that I replace the period-correct Campys with some light-touch, dual-pivot stoppers. I am thrilled to have another NR bike of decent quality to play with, and to have found a stash of NOS Soyo 600c sewups at a Seattle shop for $5.00 each! Thanks for decal leads, and for reading. Kris Green About to move for the first time in a decade--yikes! Olympia, WA

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:56:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> To: LouDeeter@aol.com, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Now--Politics on the List? Message-ID: <20040721165603.91637.qmail@web81008.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1C335012.659F20CB.0269AA25@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 10

I agree. There are several politicians about whom I hold a similar opinion to that Ted holds of President Bush, but this is not the place to discuss that. To say 9-11 impacted the market was fine, but it should have been left at that.

Regards,

Jerry Moos

LouDeeter@aol.com wrote: Ted, I thought we had an agreed to protocol that we keep our politics off-list. I can't find where your comments add anything positive to the classic bicycle collecting subject. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL

"Ted E. Baer" writes:
>2. When our jack-ass of a pResident led us into a war
>on Iraq (that was in no way justified, and has since
>been proven to be 100% inaccurate,) the same thing
>happened again.
>
>But if this pResident
>gets re-elected, my guess is that all vintage stuff
>will all be snapped up.
>
>3. But we're not out of it yet. Now the pResident is
>considering war with Iran and who knows who-else.
>
>Ted Baer
>"Moving out of this country for four years if the
>"chimp" gets re-elected."
>Palo Alto, CA
> _______________________________________________ Classicrendezvous mailing list Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Van De Velde <jaysportif@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]The rise and fall of vintage bike collecting?-a shameless plug Message-ID: <20040721170505.1254.qmail@web20225.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11

Steve Neago wrote:
>has the bike collection market gone downhill? Are vintage collectors and bike sellers hoarding parts or keeping the parts off ebay?<

I have currently listed on eBay a Colnago Duall Ergal, very similar to the frameset shown on the webmeister's Colnago page: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Colnago/colnago_duall_ergal.htm

here's the eBay link: http://ebay.com/<blah>

Jay "doing my part to reverse a trend"Van De Velde Seal Beach, CA

--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:17:07 -0400 From: Robert Kaufmann <kaufmann@crsa.bu.edu> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Re: Any relationship? Message-ID: <v04011701bd24552b0e57@[128.197.83.55]> In-Reply-To: <000501c46f41$e9e8c500$7fb85142@HAL9000> References: <20040720.194342.-785155.4.airart4@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 12

All:

For of you watching the tour, does anyone know if Ivan Basso has any relationship to the Italian Bikes of the same name? Or is Basso just a very common name in Italy?

Robert Kaufmann Newton, MA ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:24:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ted E. Baer" <wickedsky@sbcglobal.net> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Apology Message-ID: <20040721172421.20877.qmail@web80603.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 13

Dear List Members,

A post that I sent to Mr. Neago and the CR List has generated a lot of controversy.

I am writing to apologize for my remarks which may have offended List Members.

I should have left the answer to Steve Neago's question at this: -------------------------------------------------- Steve,

<Are vintage collectors and bike sellers hoarding parts or keeping the parts off ebay?>

Yes.

<has the bike collection market gone downhill?>

Yes and No.

In my 5 years of selling vintage parts on eBay I stand 100% behind the fact that WORLD EVENTS HAVE A HUGE IMPACT ON THE VINTAGE BICYCLE PARTS MARKET. --------------------------------------------------

Sorry to everyone offended.

Regards, Ted Baer Palo Alto, CA

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 2004 18:08:04 +0000 From: "Michael Butler" <allondon@rock.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR] Bi-Lames & all That Message-ID: <C1310690_79A6_4E1C_AB61_200F69956CBE@webmail.loadmail.load.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 14

. Many thanks Norman. Your work and expert knowledge is greatly appreciated as is the wonderful web site entirely devoted to the worship of Grubbs, Holdsworths etc.

I am not a grouse in fact the only grouse I have is a bottle of the famous sort from your side of the border and a brace of "Reds" in the chest freezer.

I came in for a lot of stick on this posting most of it very abusive and off list so I am touchy on this subject. Took a lot of time and trouble getting the references out of old period publications.

One of my original Paris frames was even ridiculed. The quote used was this is a very crude modern copy just look at the heavy bi-laminates just like French knickers. Well the frame is an original rebuilt and modernized by the holiest of the holy Alf Hetchins in Southend. The so called crude modern sleeves (hate this term) are the originals and are just a wee bit heavy on the lug lining paint!

When I was talking of welded and bi-laminated frames I was referring to the conventional idea of a traditional diamond bike frame.

My apologies for forgetting the 1934 welded Grubb recumbent. My Father and his old cycling comrades have given me a right coating over this and reminded me that you could not visit any cycling "Kaf" in the mid thirties without falling over these machines! The Marshmoor, Apple-Pie, Fuller's, Nell Gwyne were all full to breaking with these Grubb recumbent's parked up. No room to stack your bog standard bicycle.

How the hell a virtually one off like the welded Grubb recumbent got into the debate beggars belief. To me its like bringing the Hen & Chickens, Facile, Kangaroos and Crypto Bantams in. All of which went up a blind alley and have nothing to do with conventional frame evolution and development. The one thing that these have in their favour was that they were manufactured in huge numbers compared to the Grubb recumbent.

My point was that the welded traditional style lugless frames was in common usage on the continent in 1935 especially in France. And that Harry Rensch pioneered but maybe not introduced this type of frame to the UK. He certainly was the first to make and sell these welded frames in large numbers closely followed by Claud Butler. I am sure this goes for Bi-laminated frames as well. Everyone I know in cycledom thinks and says the same

Have said this over and over again I am no expert just an ordinary cyclists with 46 years riding experience who has a collection of tired, torn and tatty books and magazines from these periods which I use as a reference. The frames I rode in the 60's to deliver newspapers on, my everyday transport, to tour, camp, train and race on were 1930/40's yesteryear cast-offs. These were the lugless Clauds, Hobbs and Rensch's.

I ask is this just another case of blind devotion and obessiveness to one make at the expense of all others. We have seen it all before on the pages of CR: Raleigh are best, Sturmeys are better than derailleurs, Masi and Hetchins the list goes on and on like this debate.

Mick Butler Huntingdon Great Britain

__________________________________________________ You Rock! Your E-mail should, too. Visit Rock.com!

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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:18:01 +0000 From: "sam Lingo" <samclingo@hotmail.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]The rise and fall of vintage bike collecting? Message-ID: <BAY1-F38j3KnOdFicTz00071b2d@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15

>From: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>

, the collectors eventually all got to know each other personally and I think many are dealing straight with each other

Just received a long(19&3/4")Brass dunlop pump and Bluemels lightweight light(with leg bracket)Pre-Ebay sale.Nice to know nice people.

sam lingo pleasanton tx

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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:21:14 -0400 From: Peter Jon White <lists@peterwhitecycles.com> To: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Frame integrity Message-ID: <40FEB41A.6070800@peterwhitecycles.com> In-Reply-To: <20040721.092138.28268.30658@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> References: <20040721.092138.28268.30658@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: lists@peterwhitecycles.com Message: 16

richardsachs@juno.com wrote:

> i feel differently.
> fork blades are designed in guage, taper, and overall length
> to be bent. chainstays are not.

Are you concerned about failure? Or is it an aesthetic issue? If it's failure, have you ever seen one fail as a result of cold setting? I haven't, and I've been doing it since the mid 70s, making 120 frames into 126mm for 6 speeds. I've been spreading old 120 frames to 135 for loaded touring since the late eighties without a single problem.

-- Peter Jon White Peter White Cycles 24 Hall Rd. Hillsborough, NH 03244 603 478 0900 Phone 603 478 0902 Phax http://www.PeterWhiteCycles.com

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End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 19, Issue 51 *************************************************

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